Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

[Alan Orr]

This will probably open up another whole can of worms, but, I thought I’d at least address the 5 points that you brought up.

This is not representative of CSL Wing Chun. I do not study their system, I am only speaking from my own lineage and experience.

Alan please feel free to clarify and add insight to any of the points that I address if they do not match your philosophy, I do not wish to speak for you or your system.

The 5 Points of Argument:

1. assuming a wide stance with the body leaned forward and the chin tucked down and the hands up in front of the face generally leaving the center open

2. using bobbing and weaving and generally "bouncy" footwork

3. throwing wide punches while leaning the upper body to the side

4. moving into the opponent with the head down essentially driving forward with the forehead while hiding behind boxing gloves

5. executing a punch to the abdomen by lunging in while leaning forward at the waist


My answers:
1. In Chen Qiao Quan (Sinking Bridges Fist) there is a Xun Qiao Bu (Seeking Bridge Stance) that utilizes Li Qiao (Double Bridges) in the pattern of Hei Hu Chu Lin (Black Tiger Emerges from the Forest). This is essentially a variation of Wen Shou (Asking Hands). Wen Shou has 3 positions High, Middle & Low it is a variation of the Middle position. It is a good basic fighting stance that lends itself nicely to the concept of Gai (Covering) from a distance.

2. In Biao Zhi Quan (Darting Fingers Fist) there is a method called Jiu Shen (Saving Body). Jiu Shen utilizes Wan Yao (Bending Waist) and can be applied in various permutations and if the circling is shortened up will resemble Bobbing & Weaving based upon the stance used. It is used in much the same manner as Boxing, hence the name Saving Body. Footwork varies immensely from lineage to lineage, but I see the concept of San Jiao Ma (Triangle Horse) being utilized as it would appear under heavy pressure. San Jiao Ma is usually in play before Zi Wu Bu (Meridian Stepping) & Juan Bu (Circle Stepping) are employed as it is a good counter method that maintains a bit of offensive pressure.

3. In Biao Zhi Quan (Darting Fingers Fist) there are several techniques that employ this maneuver. Gai Zhou (Covering Elbow) and Gou Lan Chui (Hooked Barring Cut) are 2 techniques that go hand in hand. Gou Lan Chui can be an elongated hook or a short hook. It lends itself nicely to Gai Zhou when in a defensive recovery mode or counter attack when the opponent comes crashing in. It is also a versatile technique that can hit from a variety of angles. It is best employed from Pian Shen (Side Body). There are more examples within the form but I think these 2 cover it. Chou Chui (Bouncing Cut) from Chen Qiao Quan also can be applied in this manner, albeit from the bottom up. It will resemble a Slice Punch, Bolo Punch or Uppercut from Boxing depending on the angle.

4. This concept can be found in my Shier Sanshi (12 Loose Techniques) it is known as Huan Hun Yao Tie Ban Qiao (Emergency Waist Bend & Iron Half Bridge). It relies heavily on the concept of Bi Ma (Pressing Horse) and is used as a method of covering under heavy pressure. It can be employed as defense for countering or offensively to break the opponents structure. It lends itself nicely to Throwing & Grappling.

5. In my line we call this punch She Shou Chui (Snake Hand Cut) it uses the principles of Sui (Follow) & Lou (Leak). It’s use depends on the position of the bridge and if the bridge is an obstacle. It is employed in the same manner as on the video when coming out of the Huan Hun Yao Tie Ban Qiao position. It is very similar to a Body Jab in Boxing when thrown from a distance, in close it will resemble "typical" Wing Chun.

Now you may not be familiar with my terminology, there is nothing I can do about that, it is what it is. I think I’ve satisfied the requirements of the questions posed, but I’m sure you will re-butte my answers as you always do and counter with more questions. You might also want to take a moment to reflect, as there is a very prominent theory out there that Wing Chun was developed in response to European Boxing methods that were used by the British Sailors during and after the Boxer Rebellion.

Very good answers.

[Alan Orr]

And whats wrong with them having an opinion Alan?

Your WC isnt as obvious to some people that do a different lineage..... they dont get it, accept it and move on.
Why the insults such as.....



FWIW, i havent seen anyone insult you directly, they just have a different opinionon what WC is.

Maybe it is to do with every time I post on this forum I have to deal with the same group of guys that just don't listen to what I have already said many times.

I don't mind one bit if people agree or not. Everyone has their own views. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem when people tell me what they think about what I'm doing when they don't know my system or when I have already confirm what it was.

[LFJ]

Chou Chui (Bouncing Cut)

Do you know the character for that?

[BPWT..]

How would it be considered a compromise of position if they're knocking people out with it?

The only thing being compromised is the ability to look to you like they're doing Wing Chun. But unlike LTWT, CSLWC is not just a stylized way of getting your ass kicked.

I think you know what I mean, but you're doing your best to bring this back to insults rather than discussion.

I mean this: if a Wing Chun guy used an axe kick to someone's head, that kick might well have compromised his Wing Chun body method, his Wing Chun structure - maybe it would be in conflict with his Wing Chun concepts.

If the kick knocks the other guy out cold, that's a great result! But was it a kick using Wing Chun's methods? The result (positive) of the kick isn't the issue.

If Tyson wins a fight by head butting someone, is that boxing? If you say, "Yes, it's boxing," then that is where we see things differently.

[KPM]

No you said well done, but you can't see any wing chun. Don't try and start sounding like you all hard done by now.

I'm not denying that at all. I couldn't see the Wing Chun in those two clips and was truly curious how you were seeing it as Wing Chun. And BPWT and I asked that in a respectful and polite way. But the response we received was not at all respectful or polite. And like I said, if you are going to tell me I am "stupid" and "clueless" and "low level" simply for asking questions and expressing an opinion, well....I'm going to stay in your face! I guess I'm just stubborn and hard-headed that way.

[KPM]

How would it be considered a compromise of position if they're knocking people out with it?

The only thing being compromised is the ability to look to you like they're doing Wing Chun. But unlike LTWT, CSLWC is not just a stylized way of getting your ass kicked.

Let me point that it is EXACTLY this kind of response to an honest question that has turned this thread into a 30 page b!tch-fest! How can ANYONE place blame on just one side of this whole exchange???????

[KPM]

Maybe it is to do with every time I post on this forum I have to deal with the same group of guys that just don't listen to what I have already said many times.

I don't mind one bit if people agree or not. Everyone has their own views. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem when people tell me what they think about what I'm doing when they don't know my system or when I have already confirm what it was.

Alan, you commented before that you haven't necessarily read every post in this thread. So please don't take this as insulting, I'm just trying to truly make sure you didn't miss it t he first time I said it:

You see, this whole long drawn out thread could have been easily avoided if Alan had simply said this 20 pages ago:

No I just don't want to waste my time. To explain our structure is not a few lines

But he didn't. When BPWT and I were honest and said we didn't see the Wing Chun in those clips Alan could have said, "yea, it may be subtle and not obvious but the Wing Chun is there. But I can't take the time to explain what we are doing right now." But he didn't. Instead he told us we were "low level" and "clueless" and "stupid." So we kept asking, and kept getting told we "just couldn't see it" and "were stuck in a model." So foolishly we asked again, and tone and the exchange just kept going downhill. Its really quite simple. Treat people with respect and you will get respect back. Tell them they are "stupid" and "clueless" and they will just stay up in your face. BPWT and I were asking what we thought was a pretty obvious question...why didn't the action in those clips look more like Wing Chun and less like boxing?" We didn't mean that as disrespectful. We weren't saying that Alan and his goes don't do Wing Chun. We were truly trying to see how THEY were seeing Wing Chun expressed that way. And both BPWT and I tried to keep asking in as a respectful way as possible. But the response we got was not at all respectful.

And for the record, I have never in the past had this particular discussion with you or questioned what you were doing. I hope you can see that this whole long drawn out thread is as much your making as it is BPWT or I. That was my reason for reposting what I said before. No "agendas" or hidden intentions.

[BPWT..]

Let me point that it is EXACTLY this kind of response to an honest question that has turned this thread into a 30 page b!tch-fest! How can ANYONE place blame on just one side of this whole exchange???????

It's a time-honored response. If someone fails to explain something... they use an insult instead.

[Frost]

While Grumblegeezer resets the clock with a new thread here's some food for thought (regarding stand-up guard positioning we were discussing earlier)

http://vk.com/video_ext.php?oid=1342...9cf3b05eb&hd=1

One of my favourite fighters, check how Jon Jones (in this fight) utilised an extended hand - often using it to set up those nasty elbows. One of the commentators said, "He's gotta stop doing that. He got his hand out with fingers out and you can't do that as the other guy can't come in as he'll get a finger in the eye."

Sounds sweet, LOL.

Now for sure, Jon Jones is no Wing Chun guy (more's the pity ), and this position was not WCK's Man Sau Wu Sau. But you could argue it was an approximation of it, and it helped control incoming attacks and led to some great bridge work once the distance was reduced. Certainly in a way that would have been much harder to do if he'd had both hands back to use as cover only.

Man, I could watch this guy's fights all day.

Oh god here we go again the old I cant prove what I think wing chun should look like works but look here is a top level MMA guy using something like what I think it should validation argument
Ok lets examine the argument apart shall we….. jones has something like a 10 inch reach advantage on everyone he fights, his reach is longer than most peoples kicking range which is why he gets away with the above,
And even in this fight you see the problem with this kind of guard the smaller less skilled striker still clipped him with over hands and uppercuts. Try doing that with a half decent boxer your own size and you will get rocked out, I know this because its happened to me and ive done it to others …we had a few wing chun people pop through leister shootfighters in the 10 years I was there and this is how I dealt with the problem, head movement and overhand
The above also has two other issues , leaving your lead arm out their exposes your ribs and core to kicks (which isn’t a problem for jones because of his reach), and also exposes your lead leg to the takedown, again jones’s reach makes the distance too wide for the single to be really effective, and his level of wrestling makes it even harder to take him down, actually you see in this fight his opponent gets the single a couple of times because of the stance used by jones, but cant finish because of jones’s wrestling skills
unless you are jones and have a reach longer than a normal persons kicking range and are a D1 wrestler this isn’t going to work for you so please stop validating what you think should work by using a world class athletic freak…
And as an aside what does jones do when he gets clipped by the overhand in that fight?, he covers up like alans guys do…

[LFJ]

It's a time-honored response. If someone fails to explain something... they use an insult instead.

No. I explained it to you. The only thing compromised is the ability to look to you like Wing Chun, but that's more your problem than theirs.

Your whole axe kick analogy is false. They aren't using techniques outside of Wing Chun or that violate their principles.

Again, that it is not your Wing Tsun doesn't mean it isn't Wing Chun. You can't just come on here telling them what they are doing is equivalent to adding an axe kick to their Wing Chu and still calling it Wing Chun (i.e. lying, deceiving)...

You don't realize it, but that is a big insult to their lineage, method, and the hard work they put into getting Wing Chun some recognition in Pro fighting, which is more than most embarrassments of lineages have done for the Wing Chun image. So, no, you don't get sympathy for receiving insults in return.

[BPWT..]

Nope. I said I can't see the Wing Chun in the sparring clip, for example, and said what I saw look more akin to two boxers sparring. I ask them if they could explain how what is going on is from their Wing Chun methods.

More insults and name calling came than explanation, and Alan said he didn't want to waste the time explaining. Why you're throwing in insults too is beyond me.

You were the same on the Kevin/Obasi thread - arguing a point with more insults than explanation, though by the end you did seem to admit that there wasn't too much you could say in Kevin's defense (though you didn't start that way).

As Glenn pointed out - different opinions don't need to be taken as insults. Heck, you're doing your best to actually insult me and I don't give a cr@p.

[BPWT..]

Oh god here we go again the old I cant prove what I think wing chun should look like works but look here is a top level MMA guy using something like what I think it should validation argument
Ok lets examine the argument apart shall we….. jones has something like a 10 inch reach advantage on everyone he fights, his reach is longer than most peoples kicking range which is why he gets away with the above,
And even in this fight you see the problem with this kind of guard the smaller less skilled striker still clipped him with over hands and uppercuts. Try doing that with a half decent boxer your own size and you will get rocked out, I know this because its happened to me and ive done it to others …we had a few wing chun people pop through leister shootfighters in the 10 years I was there and this is how I dealt with the problem, head movement and overhand
The above also has two other issues , leaving your lead arm out their exposes your ribs and core to kicks (which isn’t a problem for jones because of his reach), and also exposes your lead leg to the takedown, again jones’s reach makes the distance too wide for the single to be really effective, and his level of wrestling makes it even harder to take him down, actually you see in this fight his opponent gets the single a couple of times because of the stance used by jones, but cant finish because of jones’s wrestling skills
unless you are jones and have a reach longer than a normal persons kicking range and are a D1 wrestler this isn’t going to work for you so please stop validating what you think should work by using a world class athletic freak…

Many valid points! Would you say that the Man Sau Wu Sau guard (or something similar to it) has more limitations/problems than not? Or would you advocate using it with certain disclaimers?

And as an aside what does jones do when he gets clipped by the overhand in that fight?, he covers up like alans guys do…

Exactly, when he "gets clipped." Alan's guys do this in that range too, and I have no problem with it. Like I said, it is about time frames.

The question I asked was why they would choose to assume this position before the other guy throws a punch? For a boxer, I understand it can make sense - but as a Wing Chun guy, would you want to cover to take the hits on the hands/gloves?

If yes, how does that fit into your Wing Chun concepts? That is what I was asking.

Most Wing Chun lineages that I have seen have a strong emphasis on Man Sau/Wu, as it fits into the system's concepts and general ideas. So I asked how this other guard fits into Alan's system.

Apparently asking such questions is an insult to Alan, his fighters, his teacher and his system itself. It beggars belief.

[LFJ]

Apparently asking such questions is an insult to Alan, his fighters, his teacher and his system itself.

It's when you and KPM keep suggesting that what they do is not "straight up" Wing Chun, but something modified to suit the MMA environment. That is saying what they're doing isn't Wing Chun. See your most recent "incorporating axe kicks" example.

You continually challenging people to "prove" their tactics conform to the model of Wing Chun is a way to challenge them against your opinion that it isn't in fact Wing Chun. To be honest, it's not just a matter of you showing interest in their method, you actually believe they are doing something extra that is not Wing Chun and want to press the point.

[Alan Orr]

No. I explained it to you. The only thing compromised is the ability to look to you like Wing Chun, but that's more your problem than theirs.

Your whole axe kick analogy is false. They aren't using techniques outside of Wing Chun or that violate their principles.

Again, that it is not your Wing Tsun doesn't mean it isn't Wing Chun. You can't just come on here telling them what they are doing is equivalent to adding an axe kick to their Wing Chu and still calling it Wing Chun (i.e. lying, deceiving)...

You don't realize it, but that is a big insult to their lineage, method, and the hard work they put into getting Wing Chun some recognition in Pro fighting, which is more than most embarrassments of lineages have done for the Wing Chun image. So, no, you don't get sympathy for receiving insults in return.

Common sense again. Good post

[Alan Orr]

Alan, you commented before that you haven't necessarily read every post in this thread. So please don't take this as insulting, I'm just trying to truly make sure you didn't miss it t he first time I said it:

You see, this whole long drawn out thread could have been easily avoided if Alan had simply said this 20 pages ago:

No I just don't want to waste my time. To explain our structure is not a few lines

But he didn't. When BPWT and I were honest and said we didn't see the Wing Chun in those clips Alan could have said, "yea, it may be subtle and not obvious but the Wing Chun is there. But I can't take the time to explain what we are doing right now." But he didn't. Instead he told us we were "low level" and "clueless" and "stupid." So we kept asking, and kept getting told we "just couldn't see it" and "were stuck in a model." So foolishly we asked again, and tone and the exchange just kept going downhill. Its really quite simple. Treat people with respect and you will get respect back. Tell them they are "stupid" and "clueless" and they will just stay up in your face. BPWT and I were asking what we thought was a pretty obvious question...why didn't the action in those clips look more like Wing Chun and less like boxing?" We didn't mean that as disrespectful. We weren't saying that Alan and his goes don't do Wing Chun. We were truly trying to see how THEY were seeing Wing Chun expressed that way. And both BPWT and I tried to keep asking in as a respectful way as possible. But the response we got was not at all respectful.

And for the record, I have never in the past had this particular discussion with you or questioned what you were doing. I hope you can see that this whole long drawn out thread is as much your making as it is BPWT or I. That was my reason for reposting what I said before. No "agendas" or hidden intentions.

I'm sure you don't need post this again and again. If you want me to be the bad guy then all cool.

Twisting it into you asking a question and me shooting you down is not what happened. And really, does anyone care.

I thought you both where rude and showing disrespect. I told you we use and train wing chun but you continued to tell be otherwise. Now you changing it to .. I was just asking.


Fine. Just ask then. But I have answered questions and even filmed and posted clips

What have you done?