Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

[KPM]

What is wing chun? training and application look different.

You fight the way you train. Why waste time with training that has nothing to do with how you will fight?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOeFy36W8pw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg_MJyOd2SE


Good clips!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMpcM2Rywv0


Now without a tag line identifying it, I doubt anyone would recognize this video as Wing Chun.


We train skills then we punch and kick people. The skill of when, why and how is in the training. The training is not fighting.

This is true. But if when you are fighting you are going to look like a boxer (as in the clip above), why not just train boxing? If the delivery system for your punches and kicks when fighting doesn't look much like the delivery system you used when training for punching and kicking, then one has to wonder about the training. You fight the way you train. If you are going to use a boxing structure when sparring and call it Wing Chun, then we should be seeing the same structure when you do your drills or Wing Chun forms. Shouldn't we? Why train one way and fight another?

Now don't get me wrong Alan. There is nothing wrong with what you guys are doing. But I would call it MMA with Wing Chun concepts, not Wing Chun.

[Alan Orr]

I never said Wing Chun was limited. Let me ask you this Alan. If you took one your students or of Robert's students that has never done any MMA specific training or even sparred with MMA guys and threw him in the cage for a bout at an event....would he look anything like Josh did in that clip? I still say that was MMA with some Wing Chun concepts included. And there is nothing wrong with that. Was Vitor doing Wing Chun in the clip I posted? I agree that the training develops skills. But then why does it look nothing like the training when expressed in the cage? You fight the way you train. So I maintain that what we are actually seeing in these clips is a result of MMA training more than it is the Wing Chun training. That's what I mean by "straight up" Wing Chun. The average guy training Wing Chun today is NOT going look like your guys if he ever had to fight. That is because your guys do a heck of a lot of MMA training in addition to any Wing Chun training. You fight the way you train. Many Wing Chun people are guilty of not taking their Wing Chun training to a more realistic level. But one doesn't have to train MMA to do that.

And you agree with Twen/tc101 that it has nothing to do with Wing Chun knowledge? Doesn't Wing Chun knowledge equate to Wing Chun training? So you could throw out the "Wing Chun knowledge" that you are imparting to your students and just do the MMA training and they would be just as successful?

More if and buts. When Josh trained for his fight he was sparring with all my guys. Fighters and just class based guys. Everyone I teach learns and trains the same system. We are not the average wing chun guys as we train as fighters. It doesn't mean you have to fight or do MMA. I have guys that never want to fight and are just as good as Josh, I have guys better than some of my fighters. I have fighters that only what to train wing chun and boxing, wing chun to use in K1.

We train the classical training. Forms, drills Chi Sao, sparring. We apply that to the problem given - the street - mma- boxing K1 etc

Not all wing chun is the same, that is true. Not all wing chun will work in the cage and some not even on the street. That has nothing to do with me.

I don't understand why on this forum some people always what to say - you guys do well but it can't be wing chun lol

My students are successful due to - CHU SAU LEI WING CHUN is that clear for you?

Normal class sparring -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMpcM2Rywv0

Normal Chi Sau to Gor Sau

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YvlLJbC4QE


Normal Chi Sao to Clinch to Ground - This one is old 2008 - I'm now a BJJ Black Belt so my grappling has improved. Oh Neil in The video is my PRO MMA fighter 5-1-0 ( 1 Was to knee injury). He is super tough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyxJIq9UEJY

So Wing Chun is not a simple paint by number art.

[Alan Orr]

What is wing chun? training and application look different.

You fight the way you train. Why waste time with training that has nothing to do with how you will fight?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOeFy36W8pw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg_MJyOd2SE


Good clips!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMpcM2Rywv0


Now without a tag line identifying it, I doubt anyone would recognize this video as Wing Chun.


We train skills then we punch and kick people. The skill of when, why and how is in the training. The training is not fighting.

This is true. But if when you are fighting you are going to look like a boxer (as in the clip above), why not just train boxing? If the delivery system for your punches and kicks when fighting doesn't look much like the delivery system you used when training for punching and kicking, then one has to wonder about the training. You fight the way you train. If you are going to use a boxing structure when sparring and call it Wing Chun, then we should be seeing the same structure when you do your drills or Wing Chun forms. Shouldn't we? Why train one way and fight another?

Now don't get me wrong Alan. There is nothing wrong with what you guys are doing. But I would call it MMA with Wing Chun concepts, not Wing Chun.

I know there is nothing wrong with what we are doing in MMA LOL, But thanks for telling me.


Why not train boxing? - Hello, I have said so many times. We train Chinese Boxing - Wing Chun Kuen. All our skills which you can't seem to see (not my fault or problem) are the reason why we have success in MMA. Of course Wing Chun on the street will be different in terms of use of tools, but core skills are the same. The power develop and structure is the same.

We do not train western boxing as we punch differently as we train Wing Chun. Our fist position, our hip and feet our angles, our timing, our should control. So many things. I have many students that train western boxing before coming to me. The first thing they say is wow this is so different. Is that clear enough for you?

[Alan Orr]

Fighting looks like fighting. Gong Fu is a method of developing a particular skill...all respect to Sifu Orr and his team for bringing their Gong Fu training into a real and live environment. They are a light in a dark and shameful world.

Thank You. Nice to hear

[KPM]

I have trained with Vitor as he is a friend of my BJJ teacher. He wasn't doing Wing Chun and has never said anything different - he just fired a one two repeated and charged. So that is a pointless reference.

No it is not a pointless reference. My point was that Vitor did something that was more recognizable as Wing Chun than what Josh did yet no one claims that he was "doing Wing Chun" in the cage!


On the other hand Josh does train Wing Chun - Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and we did train to land that punch. All my MMA fighters train CSL Wing Chun - is that clear for you?

Of course its clear to me! Its also very clear to me that they train MMA as well. What we see in the cage is more a result of MMA training than Wing Chun training. Otherwise anyone training Wing Chun WITHOUT the MMA training should be able to step in there and look the same, shouldn't they?

I am bored of explaining that just because you have a limited insight to what we do - it does not mean we do.

I know what you are doing and admire it. I just don't think it is all Wing Chun, that's all. To show one of your guys winning is great! Congrats! To call it a success attributed to Wing Chun when he wins with a punch exactly like Vitor what uses in the clip I posted is just a little off.


If, I think, maybe, could be, - all BS. You don't know so what are you adding?

Adding to what? I'm just expressing my opinion.


We know what we are doing. Our Wing Chun is very different to others.

Could that be because it is Wing Chun adapted to a MMA format? Could that be because you include lots of MMA training? My point is that if you are labeling clips as "Wing Chun" that look nothing like Wing Chun, the non-Wing Chun person is going to think "what's he talking about? That looks just like any other MMA fighter!" That doesn't really help our cause or image to the rest of the martial arts world because they will just think Wing Chun is a joke and trying to pose as MMA. I think it would be better to talk about how Wing Chun concepts and training has enhanced your MMA. And if the average Joe sees your MMA/sparring clips labeled as Wing Chun, and then walks into just about any Wing Chun school in the world other than yours looking for the same thing....he's going to be a bit disappointed.

[KPM]

I know there is nothing wrong with what we are doing in MMA LOL, But thanks for telling me.

Look Alan. I'm not your enemy. I was giving you props. No need for the sarcasm.


Of course Wing Chun on the street will be different in terms of use of tools, but core skills are the same. The power develop and structure is the same.

Well, here is a key point...."Wing Chun on the street"....which I am assuming you mean "as opposed to Wing Chun for MMA." Which could easily be seen as....Wing Chun the way is was originally designed.....as opposed to Wing Chun adapted to MMA. At least that's how I see it. But that's just my opinion.

[BPWT..]

training and application look different.

Playing devil's advocate... would you say the same thing about a boxer or a BJJ practitioner's training? Does their training, in your opinion, look different to their application?

[LFJ]

I can't see why people on a wing chun forum are unhappy to see our wing chun working.

Well, I am not one of those people. I understand the abstract nature of Wing Chun in application. You explain it well in your many clips, all of which I pretty well agree with. Are you aware of any other WC lineage that uses this punch though? I am not, but my experience is not as broad.

[KPM]

Again, just so anyone reading is clear! I admire what Alan and his guys have accomplished in the cage! They are hardcore and a good example to all! But I see what they are doing as either Wing Chun adapted for MMA, or MMA with solid Wing Chun concepts included. And there is nothing wrong with that! Wing Chun is not limited, it is adaptable. What I disagree with is labeling clips as Wing Chun that look nothing like "typical", or "straight up" Wing Chun and look exactly like the typical MMA that everyone else is doing. Overall I don't think this is actually good for Wing Chun's image for the reason I noted above. This would be like an MMA fighter with a TKD background landing a knock out roundhouse kick to the head and labeling the clip as an example of the success of TKD in the cage. Well, don't most other MMA fighters know how to do a roundhouse kick whether they studied TKD or not? Was their something unique about that roundhouse kick that made it instantly recognizable as TKD? Probably not. But if the fighter had landed a knock out capoeira kick to the head that no one other than capoeira fighters were using....THEN one could say that was an example of capoeira's success in the cage!

[Alan Orr]

Playing devil's advocate... would you say the same thing about a boxer or a BJJ practitioner's training? Does their training, in your opinion, look different to their application?

Yes they do. Im boxing you use a speed ball, focus pads etc. You do not take them in the ring. Wing Chun forms and drills are training skills - timing speed positioning.

BJJ - Training has many levels. As it is a sport art it is closer to normal training. But comps add a lot of strength and power. You can train BJJ without that.

[Alan Orr]

I have trained with Vitor as he is a friend of my BJJ teacher. He wasn't doing Wing Chun and has never said anything different - he just fired a one two repeated and charged. So that is a pointless reference.

No it is not a pointless reference. My point was that Vitor did something that was more recognizable as Wing Chun than what Josh did yet no one claims that he was "doing Wing Chun" in the cage!


On the other hand Josh does train Wing Chun - Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and we did train to land that punch. All my MMA fighters train CSL Wing Chun - is that clear for you?

Of course its clear to me! Its also very clear to me that they train MMA as well. What we see in the cage is more a result of MMA training than Wing Chun training. Otherwise anyone training Wing Chun WITHOUT the MMA training should be able to step in there and look the same, shouldn't they?

I am bored of explaining that just because you have a limited insight to what we do - it does not mean we do.

I know what you are doing and admire it. I just don't think it is all Wing Chun, that's all. To show one of your guys winning is great! Congrats! To call it a success attributed to Wing Chun when he wins with a punch exactly like Vitor what uses in the clip I posted is just a little off.


If, I think, maybe, could be, - all BS. You don't know so what are you adding?

Adding to what? I'm just expressing my opinion.


We know what we are doing. Our Wing Chun is very different to others.

Could that be because it is Wing Chun adapted to a MMA format? Could that be because you include lots of MMA training? My point is that if you are labeling clips as "Wing Chun" that look nothing like Wing Chun, the non-Wing Chun person is going to think "what's he talking about? That looks just like any other MMA fighter!" That doesn't really help our cause or image to the rest of the martial arts world because they will just think Wing Chun is a joke and trying to pose as MMA. I think it would be better to talk about how Wing Chun concepts and training has enhanced your MMA. And if the average Joe sees your MMA/sparring clips labeled as Wing Chun, and then walks into just about any Wing Chun school in the world other than yours looking for the same thing....he's going to be a bit disappointed.

MMA is not a martial art. It means mixed martial arts. So we train Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun for our stand up - which includes our CSL Chinese Boxing ( which is our wing chun with gloves - I have arranged a system of progession within that) We train BJJ and wrestling for takedowns and ground game. On the ground we still use our Wing Chun. in BJJ we still use many wing chun skills.

Look, this is how we train Wing Chun and this is what we do. Like it or not, it is our Wing Chun. So please stop trying to tell me what I should or shouldn't call it. We are proud of our system and that's why we share our clips and experience. If someone see my clips and is disappointed by another school then what has that got to do with me? I traveled the world and still do too train with the system I wanted to learn.

[LFJ]

This is one of the many many reason we are punching differently from normal boxing. We train a chinese boxing system...

...Our Wing Chun is very different to others, I know as after 27 years in Wing Chun I have checked out many styles and teachers. I am very very clear on my art.

Do you think your art has evolved to better suit a sporting environment like Western Boxing, as opposed to street defense?
Or are you of the opinion that there shouldn't be such a distinction?

[Alan Orr]

Again, just so anyone reading is clear! I admire what Alan and his guys have accomplished in the cage! They are hardcore and a good example to all! But I see what they are doing as either Wing Chun adapted for MMA, or MMA with solid Wing Chun concepts included. And there is nothing wrong with that! Wing Chun is not limited, it is adaptable. What I disagree with is labeling clips as Wing Chun that look nothing like "typical", or "straight up" Wing Chun and look exactly like the typical MMA that everyone else is doing. Overall I don't think this is actually good for Wing Chun's image for the reason I noted above. This would be like an MMA fighter with a TKD background landing a knock out roundhouse kick to the head and labeling the clip as an example of the success of TKD in the cage. Well, don't most other MMA fighters know how to do a roundhouse kick whether they studied TKD or not? Was their something unique about that roundhouse kick that made it instantly recognizable as TKD? Probably not. But if the fighter had landed a knock out capoeira kick to the head that no one other than capoeira fighters were using....THEN one could say that was an example of capoeira's success in the cage!

Again. We train CHU SAU LEI WING CHUN under my teacher Robert Chu. So when we post our clips we will continue to honor my teacher and our system, as thats what we train and that is why it works. Please stop trying to tell me about something you clearly do not understand.

[Alan Orr]

Do you think your art has evolved to better suit a sporting environment like Western Boxing, as opposed to street defense?
Or are you of the opinion that there shouldn't be such a distinction?

We only started MMA etc to test our basics. Body structure, power and so on. Our system is excellent for the street even more so from the sport training. Nothing is better for timing than dealing with strong pressure and taking hits and more angles.

My timing is very natural now due to Chi Sao and sparring.

new clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfXKWNdY25Y

[LFJ]

So we train Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun for our stand up - which includes our CSL Chinese Boxing ( which is our wing chun with gloves - I have arranged a system of progession within that)

Sounds like you're saying a part of your WC has evolved a sporting adaptation which is separate from the rest of your WC? If so, perhaps that should be made clear.