Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

[BPWT..]

Yes they do. Im boxing you use a speed ball, focus pads etc. You do not take them in the ring. Wing Chun forms and drills are training skills - timing speed positioning.

BJJ - Training has many levels. As it is a sport art it is closer to normal training. But comps add a lot of strength and power. You can train BJJ without that.

Okay, fair enough. Thanks for responding.

I'd agree that Wing Chun forms and drills are about training skills such as timing, speed and positioning. What I meant was, as a boxer do you train a cross one way and use it another way in application, or train a shoulder roll against the cross, but then use it another way in application?

Or as a BJJ guy, do you train a rear naked choke one way but in application use it another way?

This is a good thread, as WCK use in the ring does seem to be 'problematic'. A boxer trains and then when using his art in application, looks like a boxer. A BJJ practitioner trains his art and then in the ring/on the mats, looks like a BBJ guy (even to fairly untrained eyes).

[Alan Orr]

Sounds like you're saying a part of your WC has evolved a sporting adaptation which is separate from the rest of your WC? If so, perhaps that should be made clear.

No they are the same. As the core is all in our body structure system. The only change is you have to understand sparring is training not a fight. So we train skills and ideas just like in Chi Sao. Then for a fight we up the sparring to fight training. But all skills are CSL Wing Chun.

[BPWT..]

new clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfXKWNdY25Y

Thanks for posting it - I like pretty much most of your uploaded video. Lots of the drills you show involve intercepting and bridging. Do you work these purely for timing, or do you think this is something your guys can use (in the ring)?

[LFJ]

I see what they are doing as either Wing Chun adapted for MMA, or MMA with solid Wing Chun concepts included.

What do you think MMA is? As Alan already said, it's not a style. An MMA gym doesn't teach "MMA". It teaches whatever styles the coach chooses by "mixing the martial arts" in any combination. For these guys it's WC+BJJ. So, "MMA with solid Wing Chun concepts" doesn't make sense.

[LFJ]

I think he referred to it as a 'reeling punch' (?).

Don't know what chu sau lei WC is but i can certainly reference that punch in my own forms (Yip Man lineage). Most of what his figher did when he throws that 'reeling punch' seems to me to come from 2nd form, with a little bit of 3rd form. Just my .02 though. Thx.

What YM lineage and where in the forms? Because I'm also YM lineage, which is not specific enough since most are at least a generation or two removed, and I don't recognize this kind of punch.

[KPM]

What do you think MMA is? As Alan already said, it's not a style. An MMA gym doesn't teach "MMA". It teaches whatever styles the coach chooses by "mixing the martial arts" in any combination. For these guys it's WC+BJJ. So, "MMA with solid Wing Chun concepts" doesn't make sense.

Yeah, we know that's how MMA started. But really, it has become its own thing. How many fighters do you see in the cage doing recognizable martial arts styles? Lyoda Machita used to be different in that you could see his classical Karate influence. But even that has faded a bit as he continues to compete. Now they all do a combo of stand up boxing/kickboxing, wrestling, and BJJ/submission wrestling on the ground. The days of a guy stepping into the ring to see how his Kenpo, TKD, or Karate training would fare against someone else went out long before Zuffa came along. What Alan's guys are doing is the stand up portion with "chinese boxing". When do you ever see a trainer "mixing" something other than boxing/kickboxing, wrestling, and BJJ?

[Alan Orr]

Thanks for posting it - I like pretty much most of your uploaded video. Lots of the drills you show involve intercepting and bridging. Do you work these purely for timing, or do you think this is something your guys can use (in the ring)?

Welcome

It is for timing for sure. On the street you will have a higher % of success, as your opponent is not trained and really for a war. Plus you have more tools to use and less rules.

In the cage we test the core basic of our system. A lot of the higher skills close down an opponents game. The opponent Josh was fighting is a BJJ nation champ, but Josh closed him down with our CSL Wing Chun structure.

[Alan Orr]

Okay, fair enough. Thanks for responding.

I'd agree that Wing Chun forms and drills are about training skills such as timing, speed and positioning. What I meant was, as a boxer do you train a cross one way and use it another way in application, or train a shoulder roll against the cross, but then use it another way in application?

Or as a BJJ guy, do you train a rear naked choke one way but in application use it another way?

This is a good thread, as WCK use in the ring does seem to be 'problematic'. A boxer trains and then when using his art in application, looks like a boxer. A BJJ practitioner trains his art and then in the ring/on the mats, looks like a BBJ guy (even to fairly untrained eyes).

No we train all our wing chun punches for MMA or boxing as we do in normal class training with Chi Sao and Gor Sao. Our Wing Chun in the cage looks like Wing Chun to me, as that's what we train and that's our goal. We know the difference between skill development and skill application

[KPM]

Again. We train CHU SAU LEI WING CHUN under my teacher Robert Chu. So when we post our clips we will continue to honor my teacher and our system, as thats what we train and that is why it works. Please stop trying to tell me about something you clearly do not understand.

I understand perfectly. Just because I have a different viewpoint doesn't mean I'm stupid and don't understand what you are doing. You just said the you do "CSL Chinese boxing". To me that implies your CSL Wing Chun adapted to a competitive kickboxing environment, doesn't it? And this would be distinct from "straight up" Wing Chun. That's all I've been saying.

[tc101]

What YM lineage and where in the forms? Because I'm also YM lineage, which is not specific enough since most are at least a generation or two removed, and I don't recognize this kind of punch.

The form/drills are there as models not so much for the dance steps in them but to get across more important things behind the dance steps. It was first explained to me using a tennis analogy. When you look in a tennis book on how to hit a forehand or backhand you see it taught a certain way, with you facing side toward the net, standing still, weighted 50-50, racket arm drawing straight back, hitting the ball as you shift your weight to the front leg, and so forth. Now if you look at real tennis matches even with very good players you never hardly see that. Why? Because you cannot play dynamically like that. Your facing will be different, you may be running, your weight will be whereever it is when you get to the ball, and so forth. In other words, it will look nothing like the book or model. The model is a way to teach you those things that go into hitting the ball, the weight transfer, the angle of the racket, the timing, and so forth. The model or the form is a finger pointing to something else and it is that something else that is what is important. The tennis textbook teaches you how to hit the ball with the proper control and with power by putting your body into it a certain way. That is the how you judge the stroke and NOT by how closely it looks to the model.

When I look at that fight, I see the Orr fighter controlling the center, using that control to intercept the opponent's action and timing to land a strike on his center, that strike having the structural integrity and powers transfer that comes from his wing chun training, and then him following up with chain punching to finish the fight. Is that not a great example of wing chun fighting?

[Alan Orr]

Hard to describe via a forum; however in the end it all boils down to how one defines certain terms and tools and concepts. I've posted before how wing chun has, as in politics, both liberals and conservatives. If a WC conservative (someone who interprets the forms literally) were to experience the wing chun of a WC liberal (someone who interprets the forms for what they are and can break them into their pieces and parts etc and apply them in a recombined manner) they would most likely say something like "hey, that's not wing chun" because their two interpretations did not match up to their perceptions.

So, I could answer by saying the waist torque, long bridge shoulder power, rear hand, opposite action power generation, heel placement, etc is all found in the ideas and concepts of 2nd and 3rd form in my wing chun...but most likely folks would disagree, argue, etc etc.

I can sympathize with Alan because there have been times when (dare I say) mainstream wing chun have accused us of not doing wing chun... haha
Oh well.

I'm curious as LFJ is about how Alan or CSL WC defines "reeling punch".
Thx.

Thank you. Yes you are correct. The reeling punch is a more circular punch. It comes from the centered body - not like boxing. and the arm delinks then comes back in and relinks back to the power vector with the knuckles in correct wing chun positioning. Its a bigger punch that our Whipping punch which is smaller and tighter.

[Alan Orr]

I understand perfectly. Just because I have a different viewpoint doesn't mean I'm stupid and don't understand what you are doing. You just said the you do "CSL Chinese boxing". To me that implies your CSL Wing Chun adapted to a competitive kickboxing environment, doesn't it? And this would be distinct from "straight up" Wing Chun. That's all I've been saying.

No we are doing CSL Wing Chun Kuen. Which is Chinese Boxing.

[Alan Orr]

The form/drills are there as models not so much for the dance steps in them but to get across more important things behind the dance steps. It was first explained to me using a tennis analogy. When you look in a tennis book on how to hit a forehand or backhand you see it taught a certain way, with you facing side toward the net, standing still, weighted 50-50, racket arm drawing straight back, hitting the ball as you shift your weight to the front leg, and so forth. Now if you look at real tennis matches even with very good players you never hardly see that. Why? Because you cannot play dynamically like that. Your facing will be different, you may be running, your weight will be whereever it is when you get to the ball, and so forth. In other words, it will look nothing like the book or model. The model is a way to teach you those things that go into hitting the ball, the weight transfer, the angle of the racket, the timing, and so forth. The model or the form is a finger pointing to something else and it is that something else that is what is important. The tennis textbook teaches you how to hit the ball with the proper control and with power by putting your body into it a certain way. That is the how you judge the stroke and NOT by how closely it looks to the model.

When I look at that fight, I see the Orr fighter controlling the center, using that control to intercept the opponent's action and timing to land a strike on his center, that strike having the structural integrity and powers transfer that comes from his wing chun training, and then him following up with chain punching to finish the fight. Is that not a great example of wing chun fighting?

Excellent post! Nice to hear we are on the same page.

[KPM]

I know what you were getting at BPWT, and it has nothing to do with using equipment. Of course you can't take a speed ball or heavy bag into the ring!

I'd agree that Wing Chun forms and drills are about training skills such as timing, speed and positioning. What I meant was, as a boxer do you train a cross one way and use it another way in application, or train a shoulder roll against the cross, but then use it another way in application?

Most boxers I have seen are doing things in training that look exactly like what they do in the ring. They don't use a particular stance or position in training to practice punching or defending, and then abandon that stance when they get into the ring. They don't practice combo's on the pads (kind of their equivalent of forms training) and then do those combo's differently in the ring. Same for BJJ. They don't do their guard or mount or side position one way in training and a different way in the ring. Both Boxing and BJJ train the way they fight and are recognizable in any sparring situation.


This is a good thread, as WCK use in the ring does seem to be 'problematic'. A boxer trains and then when using his art in application, looks like a boxer. A BJJ practitioner trains his art and then in the ring/on the mats, looks like a BBJ guy (even to fairly untrained eyes).

Exactly! Now maybe Alan is onto something. Maybe what he and his guys are doing in the ring is how to make Wing Chun work. Maybe we need to drop all the traditional training we have been doing for generations and focus on how to make Wing Chun work in that MMA-type environment. To do that we probably don't need the forms, the dummy, or most of the rest.

[Alan Orr]

I know what you were getting at BPWT, and it has more to do with using equipment. Of course you can't take a speed ball or heavy bag into the ring!

I'd agree that Wing Chun forms and drills are about training skills such as timing, speed and positioning. What I meant was, as a boxer do you train a cross one way and use it another way in application, or train a shoulder roll against the cross, but then use it another way in application?

Most boxers I have seen are doing things in training that look exactly like what they do in the ring. They don't use a particular stance or position in training to practice punching or defending, and then abandon that stance when they get into the ring. They don't practice combo's on the pads (kind of their equivalent of forms training) and then do those combo's differently in the ring. Same for BJJ. They don't do their guard or mount or side position one way in training and a different way in the ring. Both Boxing and BJJ train the way they fight and are recognizable in any sparring situation.


This is a good thread, as WCK use in the ring does seem to be 'problematic'. A boxer trains and then when using his art in application, looks like a boxer. A BJJ practitioner trains his art and then in the ring/on the mats, looks like a BBJ guy (even to fairly untrained eyes).

Exactly! Now maybe Alan is onto something. Maybe what he and his guys are doing in the ring is how to make Wing Chun work. Maybe we need to drop all the traditional training we have been doing for generations and focus on how to make Wing Chun work in that MMA-type environment. To do that we probably don't need the forms, the dummy, or most of the rest.

No the forms and dummy with correct understanding of body structure are super important. They map our the structure positioning and control. Most wing chun have very poor form understanding therefore the application is weak. Our system we understand the power of the forms so our application under pressure is sound.