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Thread: wing chun range and angles

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    wing chun range and angles

    This is the problem with wing chun today, Although I can appreciate what Dominick Izzo is trying to do, he is using the same chasing straight line footwork like most wing chun people today in a boxer's range, very few seem to use the angular approach in your face approach that wing chun was designed to use. From my experience a boxer will eat you alive if you fight this way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXzzg2ZnTMc
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 04-16-2014 at 08:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HybridWarrior View Post
    Link doesn't work (?) Was the video already removed? Thx
    try it again

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    IT's a great idea for a clip. The premise of the clip was about wing chun demos/training not using 'real boxers' to train against. Unfortunately, I'd say this clip falls into that exact same category. While the first guy demoing with Dom may have taken some boxing classes, once they get into the demo part of the clip, he didn't really do anything a boxer would do. He only puy put his hands up and try to fend Dom off. No footwork, no bob/weave, no attacks really either. He just stood there and tried to fend Dom off until Dom found a way in. So in this case, Dom kinda proved his point

    The second guy was a bit better, he did simulate punches (most of which would probably have landed if not pulled). And yes this is a demo, but I think if they put gloves on and either guy was really trying to hit Dom, things wouldn't have worked out so well for Dom. And this is because he's just plowing fwd 100% deui ying as has been pointed out already, where any good boxer would eat him up on angles. Even a not-so-good boxer would. That's not to take anything away from Dom, just seeing that he would need some better chase/persue & angling tactics if he is to make this work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HybridWarrior View Post
    It worked. Thx.

    As for his straight line footwork...it makes one wonder if he got as far as second form only (?) Or perhaps he / his particular lineage (whatever it is) emphasizes straight vs alternative methods.
    Izzo may be a decent guy but if I had to guess, he has an incomplete picture oof wing chuns assets. Just my humble opinion.
    I tend to agree. Part of the problem may be that in many lineages (including my own) angling footwork isn't formally introduced (in the forms, at least) until the Mook Yang Jong and and Bart Cham Dao --which are held back for a very long time (though we do have drills that are practiced earlier). Fortunately, I cross-train in a system of Escrima which is all about off-lining, angles and range.

    On thing though. The top guys in the Escrima group are good boxers. They are real pros when it comes to getting and angle. Getting in on them is really tough no matter what your strategy!
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    I tend to agree. Part of the problem may be that in many lineages (including my own) angling footwork isn't formally introduced (in the forms, at least) until the Mook Yang Jong and and Bart Cham Dao --which are held back for a very long time [....]
    That has been my experience also. Why do you think that is? Is it really the cynical case of wanting to eek it out to get as much money from students as is possible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    This is the problem with wing chun today, Although I can appreciate what Dominick Izzo is trying to do, he is using the same chasing straight line footwork like most wing chun people today in a boxer's range, very few seem to use the angular approach in your face approach that wing chun was designed to use. From my experience a boxer will eat you alive if you fight this way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXzzg2ZnTMc
    You have to put the two styles in context.

    WC is a self defense style, something happens, you explode, control the centreline and hopefully end the situation quickly and viciously.
    My favourite description is that its an ambush style, the assailant just doesnt know what hit him.... very very quickly it is over.

    Boxing, as we know it today, is a combat style with the very high chance of the fight going on for round after round. You have time to work your opponent out, create opportunity, set traps, feel him out, change the rhythm of the fight and so on......


    The scenarios are VERY different and the styles take this into account.

    So the whole boxer v WCer to me is a bit silly, different tools for different jobs.

    So getting to the clip, id agree with Izzo on this one.
    If you want to try to outstep a boxer, draw the fight out, try to create angles, you will give him TIME,and you will lose.

    If, on the other hand, you try to everwhelm him, dont give him a second to set himself or work you out, you have a chance.

    My two cents

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    I agree with Glen!

    WC is a self defense style, something happens, you explode, control the centreline and hopefully end the situation quickly and viciously.
    My favourite description is that its an ambush style, the assailant just doesnt know what hit him.... very very quickly it is over.


    And I think this is why Wing Chun never looks very good in a "sparring" scenario. And why Wing Chun guys that spar a lot end up not looking much like Wing Chun!


    Boxing, as we know it today, is a combat style with the very high chance of the fight going on for round after round. You have time to work your opponent out, create opportunity, set traps, feel him out, change the rhythm of the fight and so on......

    And this goes for any form of martial sport that centers around a sparring scenario.


    So getting to the clip, id agree with Izzo on this one.
    If you want to try to outstep a boxer, draw the fight out, try to create angles, you will give him TIME,and you will lose.

    If, on the other hand, you try to everwhelm him, dont give him a second to set himself or work you out, you have a chance.


    I agree. This is why the whole strategy of "eating up the space", "controlling the center" and "breaking the opponent's balance" are so important. People that don't see this are the people that spend too much time sparring with their buddies and not enough time training Wing Chun fundamentals in a realistic fashion as they were meant to be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    And I think this is why Wing Chun never looks very good in a "sparring" scenario. And why Wing Chun guys that spar a lot end up not looking much like Wing Chun! .
    I am not talking about wing chun looking good, I am talking about leaving yourself exposed like that to a boxer's powerful strikes. Even though some of you guys say that the boxers demoing aren't any good, Dom could have gotten hit continuously by them due to the fact that he is standing directly in front of them at their punching range.


    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    So getting to the clip, id agree with Izzo on this one.
    If you want to try to outstep a boxer, draw the fight out, try to create angles, you will give him TIME,and you will lose.

    If, on the other hand, you try to everwhelm him, dont give him a second to set himself or work you out, you have a chance.


    I agree. This is why the whole strategy of "eating up the space", "controlling the center" and "breaking the opponent's balance" are so important. People that don't see this are the people that spend too much time sparring with their buddies and not enough time training Wing Chun fundamentals in a realistic fashion as they were meant to be used.
    You can "eating up the space", "controlling the center" and "breaking the opponent's balance" much more efficiently and safely if you move into very close trapping range using angles as in PSWC instead of standing directly in front of the boxer in his punching range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Dom could have gotten hit continuously by them due to the fact that he is standing directly in front of them at their punching range.
    They in fact both hit him in the face with their first punch. Imagine if those big guys were actually aiming to take his head off. He has no idea how to fight. He's a Youtube celebrity because that's where newbies go to learn and he churns out footage for them.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    They in fact both hit him in the face with their first punch. Imagine if those big guys were actually aiming to take his head off.
    Absolutely.

    It is honest footage from Dominic, as at least he showed himself getting tagged by both guys from the offset, and didn't edit things And I agree with the idea that you can't draw things out (as Glenn noted).

    But Dominic starts by talking of how 90% of WCK guys can't bridge the gap, and then goes on to (twice) bridge the gap in a way that allows him to get struck by both guy's first punches. If they had been throwing heavier punches and they'd connected like these very light ones did... then Dominic would have been really struggling to apply the rest of his game plan.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    IT's a great idea for a clip. The premise of the clip was about wing chun demos/training not using 'real boxers' to train against. Unfortunately, I'd say this clip falls into that exact same category. While the first guy demoing with Dom may have taken some boxing classes, once they get into the demo part of the clip, he didn't really do anything a boxer would do. He only puy put his hands up and try to fend Dom off. No footwork, no bob/weave, no attacks really either. He just stood there and tried to fend Dom off until Dom found a way in. So in this case, Dom kinda proved his point

    The second guy was a bit better, he did simulate punches (most of which would probably have landed if not pulled). And yes this is a demo, but I think if they put gloves on and either guy was really trying to hit Dom, things wouldn't have worked out so well for Dom. And this is because he's just plowing fwd 100% deui ying as has been pointed out already, where any good boxer would eat him up on angles. Even a not-so-good boxer would. That's not to take anything away from Dom, just seeing that he would need some better chase/persue & angling tactics if he is to make this work.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUi8FCdYUPU

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Absolutely.

    It is honest footage from Dominic, as at least he showed himself getting tagged by both guys from the offset, and didn't edit things And I agree with the idea that you can't draw things out (as Glenn noted).

    But Dominic starts by talking of how 90% of WCK guys can't bridge the gap, and then goes on to (twice) bridge the gap in a way that allows him to get struck by both guy's first punches. If they had been throwing heavier punches and they'd connected like these very light ones did... then Dominic would have been really struggling to apply the rest of his game plan.
    Agreed all around.

    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    LOL. I love that clip.
    I realize he's clowning on WC here and makes a good point, but funny enough 2 different times he 'pretends' to use wing chun to deflect the boxer, he actually pulls it off! (1:48 with tan da and then 2:44 with the bong sau)
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    That has been my experience also. Why do you think that is? Is it really the cynical case of wanting to eek it out to get as much money from students as is possible?
    The motives for the "traditional" approach are hard to guage and probably vary depending on the instructor. But let me put it this way. TC recently shared a clip of a couple of talented young teenagers boxing. They demonstrated a lot of practical skill.

    By contrast, if they were being trained the way WC and a lot of other traditional arts are trained, they would have to wait till they were in their late twenties before they would have exposed to that much technique, and they would never get that much sparring experience.
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