Is the modern Wck structure and chi sau a problem in reality?

[Hendrik]

I brought this new post up because it is the core basic of Wck embedded in SNT.


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...43#post1265843



Sensitivity, force flow or Jin, are all there in snt.

No need to get other engine like taiji from other style at all.

Chisau is about sensing and playing with force flow. Jamming force flow path ....etc.



platform and distance , long fist or shor strike is about sau fatt or application , seven bows is about San gung or body gung. Sau fatt and San gung go hand in hand like the two wings of the bird.

Now we can see pretty clearly what are they.

[LFJ]

Yeah, whatever dude! You said "I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind" Now you are told that isn't true and its still not good enough. I have the feeling it wouldn't matter what anyone here said.

Maybe a comma will help; "free sparring, or fighting of any kind".

Obviously I'm referring to sparring as a progression of WC training, and fighting with it at any level of intensity or protection. That's why he's asking such a newb question about the practicality of chi-sau structure in reality against BJJ and Boxing. That's not a question anyone who has gone beyond that level of training, or understands its purpose, would ask.

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks you for the reply Eddie,
it's refreshing to have a productive discussion on KFO for once lol.

the guy that was training at my das's school was actually a francis fong student who went to fu hok. maybe we are talking about the same guy. i think we are; as there are very few practioners. very nice man by the way. i dont believe the folklore either.

Yes I believe we are speaking about the same gentleman, super nice person that was very generous with his knowledge. He Helped my research out quite a bit at that time. I will always be greatful to him for that.

we go real soft and get in real close; shifting somewhat sideways. very tai chi like is the only way i could describe it. i guess you could say side body. its very tight in close lot of lop da. sifu lau's sensitivity training was soft and flowing, and snapping with power when needed. the perfect blending of hard and soft.

Nice are there any clips on youtube ?

[Hendrik]

That's why he's asking such a newb question about the practicality of chi-sau structure in reality against BJJ and Boxing.

.

So, please educate me, what is chi sau for ?

[LFJ]

So, please educate me, what is chi sau for ?

Specific skill development and the correction of errors revealed under pressure in free sparring.

[KPM]

Yes. Lol. Now you see , a tan sau is not a tan sau .

And you see lots of so called oldest lineages snt set doesn't have the proper tan sau but a mis name tan sau.

That tell you is their lineages are the olderst or a modern creation.

Facts can be read if one knows where and how to read.

Ok. But that doesn't answer my question. What is the "original Tan Sau that isn't seen"?

[KPM]

sorry Keith neither of those videos show close body Luk Sao, If you look closely at the video I posted, you will notice they move past the elbow range to control and strike.

The first video you posted they are using their arms as a "barrier", in the second video sifu Fong does go past the elbow range a couple of times, but he seems to be mixing in a lot of non wing chun moves to do so, such as than jujitsu arm lock where he goes to the floor. and I know you are going to say it's wing chun chin-na, but it's not since it does not follow wing chun principles.

I don't mean to be argumentative Navin, but please tell me how the guys in this video that you posted are doing things any differently than in the videos I posted? They are still rolling with the "modern" Luk Sao platform. They are still using their arms as a "barrier". Heck, they don't even close in to the close body position like in the videos I posted!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aKH0uAFst0

[deejaye72]

Nice are there any clips on youtube ?

there are no clips that i know of. maybe i'll make one.

i agree its been a nice discussion

[Vajramusti]

sorry Keith neither of those videos show close body Luk Sao, If you look closely at the video I posted, you will notice they move past the elbow range to control and strike.

The first video you posted they are using their arms as a "barrier", in the second video sifu Fong does go past the elbow range a couple of times, but he seems to be mixing in a lot of non wing chun moves to do so, such as than jujitsu arm lock where he goes to the floor. and I know you are going to say it's wing chun chin-na, but it's not since it does not follow wing chun principles.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Navin- I have not looked at the video yet. I differ from your views. Fong sifu does wing chun and chinna comes naturally at advanced levels of wing chun when the opportunity is there.
Breaking, throwing and cavity attacks are functions that are performed naturally....with wing chun joint and body unity and balance and the center line and knowledge of the central axis of the body.

[kung fu fighter]

I don't mean to be argumentative Navin, but please tell me how the guys in this video that you posted are doing things any differently than in the videos I posted? They are still rolling with the "modern" Luk Sao platform. They are still using their arms as a "barrier". Heck, they don't even close in to the close body position like in the videos I posted!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aKH0uAFst0

Keith if you watch the clip again you will notice, at 0:08 into the clip these guys are doing the luk sao platform with their elbows touching each other's elbows, an then at 0:18 and 0:23 when they attack they move past their opponent's elbow to trap and control his bridge on the humerous bone of his arm to distroy his balance and structure. Although these guys are beginners and not very good, this was the best clip that I could find online to demo what I am referring to since Decipled YKSWC is still kept private.

But of course here we are only talking specificly about the luk sao platform difference, to truely get into wing chun close body range you need to apply side body facing principle which is usually done using the circling hands chi sao platform, which is very seldomly seen in the luk sao platform.

Navin- I have not looked at the video yet. I differ from your views. Fong sifu does wing chun and chinna comes naturally at advanced levels of wing chun when the opportunity is there.
Breaking, throwing and cavity attacks are functions that are performed naturally....with wing chun joint and body unity and balance and the center line and knowledge of the central axis of the body.

Don't get me wrong Joy, I really like sifu Fong's as a kung fu instructor and find him to be very humble and skileed. I can certainly appreciate what he is trying to do. However I feel turning away from the facing principle, not in side body but completely away, and having two of my hands and even entire body committed to one of the opponent's arm to be far from applying wing chun principles. I do believe that wing chun is a complete art with it's own way of applying chin-na and throwing as part of the art, However When I apply these aspects of the system I adhere to all wing chun principles. I even have chin-na where my structure is holding the opponent or breaking a joint leaving both of my hands free without the need to grap with my fingers while I am striking.

[Hendrik]

Ok. But that doesn't answer my question. What is the "original Tan Sau that isn't seen"?

The original tan sau is not the high tan sau.
The original tan sau is the type of tan sau as shown in the above video clip in my previous post

[Hendrik]

Specific skill development and the correction of errors revealed under pressure in free sparring.

How can a barrier limited and range limited practice develop skill for under pressure free sparing which is boundless and no barrier?

How can one take pressure from free sparing with that type of limited skill, such as swiming in a swing poor to handle ocean swiming?

[LFJ]

How can a barrier limited and range limited practice develop skill for under pressure free sparing which is boundless and no barrier?

How can one train a static position as in SNT to develop skill for fully dynamic sparring and fighting?

You've been involved in WC for several decades, right? Why don't you understand the stages of development?

[Hendrik]

How can one train a static position as in SNT to develop skill for fully dynamic sparring and fighting?

Simple, just activate the seven bows. Then one has the handling in the force flow and momentum.

A transformer doesn't have to be program to unlimited movement, it just has to have basic inteligent joints handling training.



You've been involved in WC for several decades, right? Why don't you understand the stages of development?



Your question in SNT above tell me you are I doing different type of wing chun.

SNT is static position ? Not as I know.


My SNT is training multiple direction force flow and momentum dynamic with minimum physical adjustment. So, we sure practics a complete different Wck.

[LFJ]

So you can fight without moving your feet. That's amazing!