Is the modern Wck structure and chi sau a problem in reality?

[LFJ]

Chi Sao is training.

Specific skill development, not free fight training.

If you are always training at that intermediate range that is neither close in or at boxing distance, then your Chi Sao may not be training you very well to deal with those distances. It seems to me that's all Hendrik is saying.

Yeah, well, no sh!t. It's not meant to be fight training. If you understand the training process and aren't stuck at that stage of development, this question won't come to mind. It's like saying SNT isn't practical because your susceptible to takedowns.

I still fight like I train though, because free sparring is part of the process for me. You'll fight the way you do with increased pressure, and that comes in free sparring, not chi-sau. So why look at chi-sau in terms of practicality? Just like training SNT, it's a specific skill development at a certain stage, not free sparring or the way you're going to fight when the pressure is high.

I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind, so I understand why he would ask that question... but then again I don't. Facing BJJ or Boxing has likely never been a concern of his.

[LFJ]

but at the end of the day Wing Chun technique is not what you will have to deal with in a real situation. So to me, the more "open-ended" the better!

For me, free sparring is where the day ends!

Chi-sau, whatever form, isn't fighting and that's not why we do it. If we want to work with what has to be dealt with in a real situation, we shouldn't be talking about chi-sau but should be free sparring. Chi-sau is just where we go to develop certain skills and correct errors revealed under pressure in sparring, just like the basic training forms.

[Vajramusti]

Specific skill development, not free fight training.





I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind, so I understand why he would ask that question... but then again I don't. Facing BJJ or Boxing has likely never been a concern of his.

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Hendrik has done kyokushin karate and therefore sparring.

[LFJ]

Hendrik has done kyokushin karate and therefore sparring.

That won't help you understand the development process of Wing Chun from SNT to fighting. It's a newb' question he's asking about the practicality of the chi-sau structure in reality against BJJ and Boxing.

[KPM]

That won't help you understand the development process of Wing Chun from SNT to fighting. It's a newb' question he's asking about the practicality of the chi-sau structure in reality against BJJ and Boxing.

Yeah, whatever dude! You said "I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind" Now you are told that isn't true and its still not good enough. I have the feeling it wouldn't matter what anyone here said.

[kung fu fighter]

Really? Who have you been watching doing YMWCK Luk Sao, because that still doesn't look any different to me!

Keith when it comes to YMWC, I've seen quite a bit, please post one clip of YMWC where they are controlling above the elbow in chi sao in in that clip, usually YMWC play luk sao using their arms as a "barrier" like Hendrik mentioned in the beginning of this thread, which doesn't allow close body range.

[Hendrik]

[B]



Zhao yang does not sound familiar to me. I'm still not sure how it is different from Tan? Or...is it the "Tok Sao" that some lineages refer to? Does it lift forward and upward using the palm rather than the outside edge of the forearm?

Zhao yang is a fujian white crane inheritance which relate to zhao yang momentum. See attached
One can see these in fujian white crane similar to the side outward block , but instead it cut into the center line for Wck. Since Wck doesn't block side way.



Start 1.55 of the following video is tan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnC9...=youtube_gdata

[Hendrik]

Yeah, this Zhao yang shape and its 'mechanics' are known to me.....but we just call it Tan sao.

Please see my reply above on tan sau.


These days we call everything we like as Tan sau.

[Hendrik]

Specific skill development, not free fight training.



Yeah, well, no sh!t. It's not meant to be fight training. If you understand the training process and aren't stuck at that stage of development, this question won't come to mind. It's like saying SNT isn't practical because your susceptible to takedowns.

I still fight like I train though, because free sparring is part of the process for me. You'll fight the way you do with increased pressure, and that comes in free sparring, not chi-sau. So why look at chi-sau in terms of practicality? Just like training SNT, it's a specific skill development at a certain stage, not free sparring or the way you're going to fight when the pressure is high.

I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind, so I understand why he would ask that question... but then again I don't. Facing BJJ or Boxing has likely never been a concern of his.

You are right!

Hendrik is like this guy in the picture. He doesn't even exist in real world.

[kung fu fighter]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265799]Zhao yang is a fujian white crane inheritance which relate to zhao yang momentum. See attached
One can see these in fujian white crane similar to the side outward block , but instead it cut into the center line for Wck. Since Wck doesn't block side way.
[QUOTE]

What is the purpose/function of Zhao yang, is it to establish contact like a man sau? or to cover the high gates which tan sao can't?

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265807][QUOTE=Hendrik;1265799]Zhao yang is a fujian white crane inheritance which relate to zhao yang momentum. See attached
One can see these in fujian white crane similar to the side outward block , but instead it cut into the center line for Wck. Since Wck doesn't block side way.

What is the purpose/function of Zhao yang, is it to establish contact like a man sau? or to cover the high gates which tan sao can't?

Zhao yang is just today so called high tan sau , it is use in center line capture or entering. Most of today Wck tan sau is zhao yang. While the original tan sau not often seen.

Tan sau is used in a different way as the above video shows

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, that motion at around the 1:55 mark is in the dummy form. Thx.

BTW, what lineage are the guys in that video?

Yks if I am not wrong.

[KPM]

Yks if I am not wrong.

I don't speak chinese, but I get the impression that the older gentleman in the white shirt is a visiting YKSWCK sifu and the everyone else appears to be Ku Lo WCK. I say this because he refers to one technique as "Dap", which is typical of YKSWCK, when in KLPSWCK the same motion is called "Lim." Other clips of the same training session shows most of the guys doing some of the two-man training from KLPSWCK and applying some of the San Sik in their Chi Sao. That's just my impression.

[KPM]

Zhao yang is a fujian white crane inheritance which relate to zhao yang momentum. See attached
One can see these in fujian white crane similar to the side outward block , but instead it cut into the center line for Wck. Since Wck doesn't block side way.



Start 1.55 of the following video is tan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnC9...=youtube_gdata

Sorry Hendrik, but I'm still not following you. The Tan in the video is clear enough. That is the Tan from KLPSWCK as well. So what is Zhao Yang? What is the blocking surface and which way is the energy directed?

[Hendrik]

Sorry Hendrik, but I'm still not following you. The Tan in the video is clear enough. That is the Tan from KLPSWCK as well. So what is Zhao Yang? What is the blocking surface and which way is the energy directed?

Zhao yang is just today common Wck tan sau. Or high tan sau.