Is the modern Wck structure and chi sau a problem in reality?

[deejaye72]

Well, I don't know what you've seen. But it shouldn't be "all wrists." You don't do a Huen Sau with just the wrist do you? The circling/rolling action should come from the elbows connected to the hips.

In this clip starting at about 30 seconds in these guys are doing a decent job of rolling. This is the little bit more refined version that "coils" that I mentioned. Notice that the movement appears to be at the wrists, but there is elbow behind it connected to the hips. Just because the elbow isn't going up and down like the "modern" platform doesn't mean the elbow doesn't have a role in driving things. As far as "playing tag", I've seen that equally often in either platform. The guys below look like they are playing tag at times. That's just because they are going slow and indicating openings rather than really trying to nail each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XQ0j53-0zE

How can increased structure lead to less gamesmanship? Its like any activity, the more rules you impose the more specific things people attempt to "work" the rules. The more structured something is the less "open-ended" it becomes. But I do agree it shouldn't be a fight simulation.

the video starting at 30 seconds; looks like what they are doing is fu hok yao gong fut pai. they mainly use clockwise and counter clockwise circles. tiger crane; a rare style suppossibly created by ng mui to counter wing chun. if you believe all that legend stuff.

[deejaye72]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkzE8UShW1w

[deejaye72]

close body chi sao is something my father has us doing from time to time. its performed a lot closer then what the gentleman are doing in the referenced video. my father was taught this by sifu jason lau in the 70's. sifu lau was taught by jiu wan. jiu wan was from fatshan. i would imagine he had exposure to all sorts of wing chun flavors.

i really think hendrik loves what he does and has a passion for wing chun. the guy is a wealth of knowledge. i would love to train and just sit down and talk to him. the stuff about structure and the 7 bows is in a lot of yipman wing chun. rare, but its there. yipman actually taught it. he didnt have a teaching method so it took like ten years to pass it along. go ask the moy yat guys they know. moy yat developed a drill to practice this structure;he called it tsui ma.

What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done,
and there is nothing new under the sun.

[deejaye72]

some more fu hoc stuff. i dont know a whole alot about it. i was exposed to it years ago. it was interesting to say the least.

[KPM]

the video starting at 30 seconds; looks like what they are doing is fu hok yao gong fut pai. they mainly use clockwise and counter clockwise circles. tiger crane; a rare style suppossibly created by ng mui to counter wing chun. if you believe all that legend stuff.

I don't know about all that Eddie. But this is the basic rolling Chi Sao platform I learned as part of Ku Lo Pin Sun. "Tiger crane" was never mentioned.

[KPM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkzE8UShW1w

I'm not sure what that is! But I'm not very impressed!

[deejaye72]

I don't know about all that Eddie. But this is the basic rolling Chi Sao platform I learned as part of Ku Lo Pin Sun. "Tiger crane" was never mentioned.

i guess i should have mentioned it looked similar to me oops! southern style circles?

[KPM]

Zhao yang is just today common Wck tan sau. Or high tan sau.

Ah! Ok. Thanks for clearing it up! So then what is the "original Tan Sau not often seen"?

[KPM]

i guess i should have mentioned it looked similar to me oops! southern style circles?

Probably! Like I wrote before, this "Huen Sao" based rolling platform is found in a number of Southern CMAs.

[deejaye72]

to be more specific; i wasnt saying that it's "tiger crane" these wing chun men are doing. i just see smilarities. southern style
that uses circles as appose to the modern luk sao platform. the young man in the video was a beginner. there is no footage on the internet of this rare style. i had to use what i could find. the people i was exposed too were very skilled, and they looked more like the
wing chun video earlier posted. i am not a practioner of this style. i was merely exposed to it a long time ago.

[KPM]

Keith when it comes to YMWC, I've seen quite a bit, please post one clip of YMWC where they are controlling above the elbow in chi sao in in that clip, usually YMWC play luk sao using their arms as a "barrier" like Hendrik mentioned in the beginning of this thread, which doesn't allow close body range.

Heck, I didn't even have to look hard Navin. I stumbled across this one on facebook. This is Michael Watson from Lee Shing WCK. He posts here in the forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=t3RdYmSe44Q

Or how about this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TSAczAuxtg

Both videos show times where they close past the "barrier" to a "close body" position and manipulated the partner's balance.

[kung fu fighter]

Heck, I didn't even have to look hard Navin. I stumbled across this one on facebook. This is Michael Watson from Lee Shing WCK. He posts here in the forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=t3RdYmSe44Q

Or how about this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TSAczAuxtg

Both videos show times where they close past the "barrier" to a "close body" position and manipulated the partner's balance.

sorry Keith neither of those videos show close body Luk Sao, If you look closely at the video I posted, you will notice they move past the elbow range to control and strike.

The first video you posted they are using their arms as a "barrier", in the second video sifu Fong does go past the elbow range a couple of times, but he seems to be mixing in a lot of non wing chun moves to do so, such as than jujitsu arm lock where he goes to the floor. and I know you are going to say it's wing chun chin-na, but it's not since it does not follow wing chun principles.

[Hendrik]

Ah! Ok. Thanks for clearing it up! So then what is the "original Tan Sau not often seen"?

Yes. Lol. Now you see , a tan sau is not a tan sau .

And you see lots of so called oldest lineages snt set doesn't have the proper tan sau but a mis name tan sau.

That tell you is their lineages are the olderst or a modern creation.

Facts can be read if one knows where and how to read.

[kung fu fighter]

the video starting at 30 seconds; looks like what they are doing is fu hok yao gong fut pai. they mainly use clockwise and counter clockwise circles. tiger crane; a rare style suppossibly created by ng mui to counter wing chun. if you believe all that legend stuff.

Hi deejaye72,
The fu hok yao gong fut pai is an interesting style, I used to converse with a gentleman that was a Jason Lau wing chun sifu who left wing chun in favor of this style. Wing chun has very similar circular stepping at the advance level as well as the circling hands chi sao platform, except we apply it in very close range. The gentleman in the video you posted seems to be using it at a long fist range, which leads me to believe it's a typical southern fist art. So Based on the evidence I find it hard to believe this system was created to defeat wing chun, I also head a similar story that Bak Mei was invented to defeat wing chun. But I believe these stories were created based on folklore.

close body chi sao is something my father has us doing from time to time. its performed a lot closer then what the gentleman are doing in the referenced video. my father was taught this by sifu jason lau in the 70's. sifu lau was taught by jiu wan. jiu wan was from fatshan. i would imagine he had exposure to all sorts of wing chun flavors. .

Can you tell us what the definition of close body chi sao is in Jason Lau's wing chun system. are they still square to each other or in side body?

What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done,
and there is nothing new under the sun.

I agree!

[deejaye72]

The fu hok yao gong fut pai is an interesting style, I used to converse with a gentleman that was a Jason Lau wing chun sifu who left wing chun in favor of this style. Wing chun has very similar circular stepping at the advance level as well as the circling hands chi sao platform, except we apply it in very close range. The gentleman in the video you posted seems to be using it at a long fist range, which leads me to believe it's a typical southern fist art. So Based on the evidence I find it hard to believe this system was created to defeat wing chun, I also head a similar story that Bak Mei was invented to defeat wing chun. But I believe these stories were created based on

the guy that was training at my das's school was actually a francis fong student who went to fu hok. maybe we are talking about the same guy. i think we are; as there are very few practioners. very nice man by the way. i dont believe the folklore either.




Can you tell us what the definition of close body chi sao is in Jason Lau's wing chun system. are they still square to each other or in side body?

we go real soft and get in real close; shifting somewhat sideways. very tai chi like is the only way i could describe it. i guess you could say side body. its very tight in close lot of lop da. sifu lau's sensitivity training was soft and flowing, and snapping with power when needed. the perfect blending of hard and soft. my father also studied tai chi with william c.c. chen. the soft aspects are ingrained in him. he trained boxing in gleasons gym in the 80's. my father was blessed with great martial arts teachers. sorry i had to brag about sifu lau and my pops lol

I agree![/QUOTE]