Good topic and good questions Steve!
Let me point out one interesting thing. On a recent thread where we were talking about the different Chi Sao platforms, Hendrik referred to the circling "Huen Sao" platform used by Pin Sun, Yik Kam and other southern CMAs as "ancient" and the Yip Man Bong/Tan/Fook" Chi Sao as "modern." One of the distinctions he made was that "modern" throws up the forearms as a barrier and more less remains at that distance. So Hendrik sees "modern" as Wing Chun that is done at roughly arm's length. In contrast "ancient" worked into closer range and used body contact much more. He sees the "ancient" or "old school" Wing Chun as operating more in a elbow strike range (at which you can still punch) and "modern" as operating more in an extended punch range like western boxing. Now, the ironic thing here is that he showed a clip of Alan Orr doing Chi Sao as an example of "ancient" because Alan was talking about closing in past the punch and controlling the opponent's center and breaking his structure. Interesting, yes?
So maybe we need an "ancient", "old school", and "modern" designation!
Anyway.....from an historical standpoint, boxing changed from "old school" to "modern" due to changes in the rules. The Marquis of Queensbury rules did not allow grappling and began to require the use of gloves. It started out as the rules for amateur competitions, while professional competitions still used the old rules. "Old school" boxing included limited grappling. A round ended only when one man hit the ground, whether by being knocked down or thrown down. If you got too close to your opponent you could get thrown down and lose the round. Hence the upright stance and extended centerline guard to keep the other man away. They kept a longer distance and did more lunging punches much like fencing. No gloves or very light gloves were worn. Parries with the forearms were used as much as covers because of the distance the fight was done at. With the MoQ rules no grappling was allowed and rounds were timed. So fighters could close in without worrying about getting thrown. If you are getting closer, then the punches can get shorter and look much less like a fencing lunge. The rules required the use of gloves that got larger and larger. At such a close distance punches would come in too fast to try and parry each one, so covering and hiding behind the gloves became more prominent. So if you are getting closer and not worrying about being grappled and you are wearing gloves that makes covers much more efficient, then your stance is just going to naturally go to the modern boxing stance leaning forward with the gloves up in front of your face.
Are we seeing a similar kind of evolution in Wing Chun? Is taking Wing Chun into the competition arena forcing a change? Maybe. I certainly think that putting on big fluffy boxing gloves in training makes a difference. Big gloves make a lot of Wing Chun hand techniques harder to do and covering with the gloves much easier to do. So if someone is spending a lot of their sparring time in big gloves, its going to have an impact....figuratively speaking!
Personally, I don't think of Wing Chun as "Chinese boxing." At least not if this is supposed to mean standing at arm's length and exchanging punches, which is what most people think of when they say "boxing." Maybe its because I practice one of the "ancient" or "old school" methods, but I like Hendrik's distinction of classifying it by distance. I agree with him that the "older" versions of Wing Chun seem to have been meant for use at very close range, and not at "boxing range." I don't thing they were meant for standing in front of someone and exchanging blows. I think they were meant for getting past the opponent's punch into "elbow and short punch" range so that you can control the opponent and break his structure. I like Glenn's description of Wing Chun as an "ambush" style.
So.....is turning "modern" Wing Chun into a "Chinese boxing" style an evolution? Is it a good thing? If you want to win competitions it is! Like you Steve, I think there is room for both "old school" and "modern" ,and I think some people like Alan Orr and his guys are able to do both quite well and quite effectively. But Alan may very well disagree with us and say that they are not two versions of Wing Chun, but rather the same thing.
Alan took exception to my suggestion that what we were seeing in those clips was Wing Chun "adapted" for MMA. I meant no disrespect then and I mean no disrespect now. When I say "adapted", I am saying that "old school" Wing Chun has been converted to "modern" Wing Chun to use the terminology of this thread. "Adapted", "evolved", "modified"....however you want to describe it. Isn't that what you are saying Steve?
As far as whether "old school" can win competitions. I think it can! Those two recent sparring clips from Sean and from Wing Chun Blast showed some good sparring that still looked rather "old school." But then I got in trouble last time for talking about what things "looked like", so I better shut up now!!!!
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Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer
