A well made wck history video from china

[KPM]

Interesting! So the implication is that Leung Lan Kwai was likely the guy that was responsible for teaching the "Red Boat" version of Wing Chun as we have come to know it through Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Pin Sun, and Yik Kam lineages? "Ng Mui" was a codename for him, implying that he was the one that "formulated" or "developed" Wing Chun? So any stories prior to LLK is the stuff of myths and legends? Would Leung Lan Kwai have been Leung Jan's teacher? Or Wong Wah Bo? How is the current theory shaping up?

[Hendrik]

Interesting! So the implication is that Leung Lan Kwai was likely the guy that was responsible for teaching the "Red Boat" version of Wing Chun as we have come to know it through Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Pin Sun, and Yik Kam lineages?

"Ng Mui" was a codename for him, implying that he was the one that "formulated" or "developed" Wing Chun?

So any stories prior to LLK is the stuff of myths and legends? Would Leung Lan Kwai have been Leung Jan's teacher? Or Wong Wah Bo? How is the current theory shaping up?

If we view Late GM Fung chun video on LLK release from Jim Rosalendo. It matches with the Chinese history in that era.

We can see extreme likely LLK is the chief who taught in the red boat.

So, extreme likely red boat wing chun 1848 is LLK wing chun.


From the history of that era, we know yik kam is under Lee man mau. WWB would be in the same generation as in Gm Fung Chun video on LLK and WWB.

Leung jan really doesn't appear in the radar screen. Also, Leung jan king of kungfu title will not hold in the era of costing 20 millions Chinese life from both Qing and anti Qing side. The era I named it as " the battle of hundred of generals" as you can see the name listed in the map in the above video. No one is king at that era , the war zone spread out with handred of generals battle in different locations. With CLF is the major player. It is a bloody war and people just carry out their specific mission. Leung jan is the later generation. Very likely Not involve in this battle.


We know at that era every anti qing is lying, no one will tell the true identify, thus, they use nick name and shao Lin....etc however, we do know any evolution of Wck from pre 1848 got to be the design of LLK. Because no one is as advance as him at that era. Yik kam is junior compare with LLK in term of Wck skill. One can verify this with Gm Fung chun story from kulo side too.


We know today, giving those era and the education of the people, Wck post 1848 evolve into a tool for specific mission. There is no time to train. No one has time to get into six core elements or seven bows or force flow like us today who live in peaceful era.

As in the above video, the anti Qing red boat opera is gone after 1855. At around 1870 a new red boat opera started, but these people are Qing support are not the same as the pre 1855, who has lost life or fleet away. Ie. If you look at the history of Fung siu Ching, he time line is abovious not relate to the pre 1855.


IMHO,
As for prio to LLK, my view is the Art of Wck is from Yim family and Leung family related to kulo. We don't know the name real name of wing chun, but she existed.

Wing chun as the Shang hai Dien chun or pointing spring are just anti Qing naming.

Some guy from emei , fuse emei and fujian white crane created the art of SLT which looks like pre 1800 fujian white crane And later passed to leung family of kulo, LLK took it to red boat and that is the beginning of Wck. Before that the art is named SLT . Our break though today is we found the released of the emei documents which matches the YKSLT kuit. Otherwise no one will know what is going on. And still we don't know who in emei did it eventhough we know today, just showing the set to an unknown emei sifu, they will jump saying this is related to us. And this type of incident have already happen.

[deejaye72]

they can match up any document they want. nobody can know for sure what that art looked like in application. unless, of course they have video footage to prove it. every single art changes. we have video evidence of boxing from the 1800's..it barely looks like the same art in comparison. everything changes. the only thing constant is change. god's law, jehovah's law, buddha's law..whatever you want to call it. even if he or one of his students beat me up tomorrow, it still wouldn't prove anything, because they could have learned the skills from another martial art. how would you know?? an ancient document? one of those documents he's accused of stealing, mind you!

go out, learn other styles, compare notes, get the sh!t beat out of you! there are no secrets, the secret is your body, you already have it.

[Hendrik]

Wing chun is forsure not her real name.

The anti Qing using the term chun or spring all over the place. As in eternal spring hall...etc

Attached is the Dien chun hall of Shang hai small knive society. Kleber will bring you there in his next video.


Chun means play or opera.

Wing chun kuen is simply means the the martial art of those who sing the play or opera from the red boat.

[Hendrik]

Mark are the Chinese history on lee man mau uprising and involve with a person from the Cho family resident area.



Thus,

With the CLF information, the Hung Mun information, the Chinese history record converges, we know Cho family is extremely likely to involve in the uprising. The Cho and Yik kam belongs to the opera and living in the area.

This means the content in the YKSLT kuit is real. Which means the mother of SLT at 1848
is indeed Emei and fujian white crane.

[Paddington]

I've really enjoyed reading and watching people talk about mid 19th century China. Am I correct in saying that those rising up against the Qing were from poorer backgrounds?

1848 in particular is know as the year of revolutions and any student of European history (Karl Marx in particular) will see a lot of parallels and relationships with what happened in China over that period as well as in the south American continent too. I think the links are stronger given some of the masonic symbology I've seen from that period in China and the role of Christianity, in terms of ideology and motivating beliefs. It is such a shame that European academia has not traditionally included China when teaching undergraduates about the revolutionary period of the mid 19th century. Personally, I see another period of such global upheaval being on the cards in my own lifetime.

[Hendrik]

I've really enjoyed reading and watching people talk about mid 19th century China. Am I correct in saying that those rising up against the Qing were from poorer backgrounds?

1848 in particular is know as the year of revolutions and any student of European history (Karl Marx in particular) will see a lot of parallels and relationships with what happened in China over that period as well as in the south American continent too. I think the links are stronger given some of the masonic symbology I've seen from that period in China and the role of Christianity, in terms of ideology and motivating beliefs. It is such a shame that European academia has not traditionally included China when teaching undergraduates about the revolutionary period of the mid 19th century. Personally, I see another period of such global upheaval being on the cards in my own lifetime.

Sure, Poverty is a big factor.

[KPM]

So if we believe story #1 it can only be correct to assume that Liang Lan Gui (Leung Lan Kwai) was in fact the monk Jinbo Liu Tou in story #2 and the teacher in story #3.

Not necessarily. If Ng Mui was a popular fictional character, then it was also likely a popular codename used amongst different groups.


How does this fit in with Emei Shier Zhuang?

That's a good question! And I don't know anything about Tibetan White Crane. A Kundalini Yoga link sounds very interesting though!

[Hendrik]

This goes back to my original argument that YKWC is the only line to contain Emei Shier Zhuang material, and it was not an original or integral part of WC's development collectively as the founder would not have traded one engine (Snake) for another (Tiger).


The above is a speculation.

Fact is,
WCK lineages such as yks, Ipman, kulo ...YK....ec has the snake of emei embedded in the SNT set. It is a common denominator of these lineages.

Snake of emei and crane of fujian are all. Nothing else . If the common denominator of SNT is not based on orginal Wck design what is?

[Hendrik]

No you are the one speculating. I'll speak for YMWC, YCWWC and NCSWC as these are the methods I've studied. There is absolutely no reference or documentation of Emei Shier Zhuang in these traditions. The only one that even comes close to a "Snake Gong" reference is the Yuan Chai Wan (Ruan Ji Yun) tradition and he never called it snake style that is what others called it, if anything his line went the way of the 5 Animals.

What you suggest is an insult to every line of Crane that exists, saying OK you're Crane style but you run on the engine of a snake. As I have stated before, and I will state yet again, this may be true for YKWC but is not for WC collectively, despite whatever famous individuals agree with you. There is no evidence outside of Cho Family documentation!!!!!!!! Have you ever studied Snake style? I have studied Southern Snake and the link to WC is not overly apparent outside of a few hand position, funny thing is these same hand positions are found in Crane. I've already pointed out that if we are to believe the legends, "Snake Gong" could not have entered WC until third generation. I'm not saying it's not the "Engine" for YKWC, but it is not the "Engine" for my branch(s), our legends clearly state where we came from. As more and more information is uncovered I see nothing that refutes the original claims found within the legends. Everything that you have uncovered only leads back to Cho Family, nothing earlier or to anyone else. As far as Kuen Kuit, the comparison to Emei Shier Zhuang is very interpretative. I could just as easily compare the Kuen Kuit to that of Taijiquan and make claims that the now extinct Southern School of Taijiquan evolved into Wing Chun and that Zhang San Feng was the founder! It's all interpretive, biased and directed to fit into a history that agrees with your ideology only. You may speak for Cho Family WC but you will not speak for me or my line. I do not care what you say Rene Ritchie, Sergio Iderola, Jim Roselando or Robert Chu think. I will form my own opinion based on the evidence presented and research that I've done. My Wing Chun isn't broken, quit suggesting that it is. As I stated before if you think that Ermei Shier Zhuang is the root and power source of WC, fantastic, just remember it only applies to Cho Family. Now I have a question I think you need to ask yourself. If Emei Shier Zhuang is be all end all "Holy Grail" of WC mechanics and theory, why don't you just give up WC altogether and Bei Shi to Fu Wei Zhong?

1. No you don't speak for lineages, you only speak for yourself.

2. From YM lineage , to yks, to yk to kulo, all has share common denominator of snake from emei.
Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art.

3. How is it an insult since legend of older Wck always point out it is a snake and crane art?

4. No one talk about holly grail, none, not me. It is just facts presented.

5. A simple thing, not complicated at all. Why made it so complex?
SNT = Emei 12 zhuang + Fujian White crane.
By evidence.


6. The kuit is inteprative for you because you are trying to compare the taste of Chinese noodle and Italian spegetti by looking at photos , but have never taste both.


7. You are free to have your opinion, as you like. I present what is found and not expect anyone to buy in.





Btw

we are to believe the legends, "Snake Gong" could not have entered WC until third generation.


This is fortune telling. Also it doesn't make sense totally. Wck is a short strike art since beginning of time, stick close and short Jin. How is Wck suppose as it is without the snake engine?

[Hendrik]

1. If I don't how can you?

2. And there it is from you own mouth: Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art I've been saying this all along, it is only found in YKWC, therefore exclusive to YKWC.

1. I Don't speak for anyone but myself,

I just present facts.


2. The fact in YKWC document is a fact. Disregard of who present it. Others of me, it doesn't matter.



3. The following is late Gm Fung chun practice with emei 12 zhuang signature in it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXW...=youtube_gdata

Jim Rosalendo who is Gm Fung decendent had confirm with Gm Fu of emei 12 zhuang.


4. You are free to have your view.

[deejaye72]

7 bows=tai chi
robert chu study tai chi
robert chu's sifu hawkins cheung practice tai chi
add a little qigong
add a little old documents
add a little chinese noodle for pie in the sky attainment
add a little dont answer questions directly, talk like fortune cookie

[Hendrik]

Believe what you like. I am ok with it.

I don't deal with believe, I present facts. And you don't have to take it.

1. You keep trying to speak for me, irregardless I what I tell you, you say I'm wrong and that Emei Shier Zhuang is present in my WC and that if it isn't it should be.

2. It's a document that supports Cho Family heritage only, it does not speak for or represent any other line.

3. Those exact same techniques and movements are found in Hongjia. Is Hongjia infused with Emei Shier Zhuang, is it's the "Engine" of Hongjia?

4. I don't care what Jim thinks, if you want to believe something hard enough you will. He is free to think what he wants, but just because him and the rest of the "League of Extraordinary Gentleman" believe it doesn't mean I have to buy into it.

When I learned WC I learned it all, questions were asked and answered with explanation. Nothing was left out. I don't want your "Snake Engine" technology, my WC works just fine without it. Quit trying to convince me I'm wrong when you can't even answer one question I've posed. You assume that my WC is incomplete and that I lack understanding because of what the Cho Family ancestors say in a document? Horsesh!t, this is all some big ruse that you and the rest of the "League of Extraordinary Gentleman" are trying to pull off. What a new book coming out? Trying to chum the waters before it's release? I'm not buying into any of this BULLSH!T! Not one shred of tangible evidence has been put forth that I haven't already refuted. You want me to fall in line? All you or anyone else has to do is answer my GODD@MN questions and convince me! So far what I've laid out on the table has not even been acknowledged let alone responded to. As far as this mysterious Fu Wei Zhong character is concerned, why wouldn't he claim that Emei Shier Zhuang is the root of WC it's good publicity for him. You want to settle this matter have him produce a document stating that someone from the Wing Chun line inherited this art. He is the Grand Master after all, and only a few of the 12 posts have been taught to the public since it's inception. They have a lineage chart don't they, claiming who is qualified to pass on the material and who they taught it to?

[FongSung]

1. If I don't how can you?

2. And there it is from you own mouth: Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art I've been saying this all along, it is only found in YKWC, therefore exclusive to YKWC.

As H.Santo has clarified he speaks for himself not on behalf of Ban Chung Wing Chun as past on by the Cho Family.

I have been learning from the Cho Family inheritors in SEA and Ng Wu, China for 8 years and nobody has acknowledged or heard it been said that there is any connection to Ermei. The only reference I have heard is to Siu Lam hence the old name to represent all old opera / red boat kung fu .. Ban Chung Siu Lam.

I do find it strange that after all these years of so called research and going back to China that H. Santo has never been back to Ng Wu to pay his respects and do research into the family names he uses so freely? I assure you both the Cho and Yik families are still around!

The fact is, as he has stated, he has found his own way and interpretation based on his own research into the other arts he has learnt .

[KPM]

1. You keep trying to speak for me, irregardless I what I tell you, you say I'm wrong and that Emei Shier Zhuang is present in my WC and that if it isn't it should be.

2. It's a document that supports Cho Family heritage only, it does not speak for or represent any other line.

3. Those exact same techniques and movements are found in Hongjia. Is Hongjia infused with Emei Shier Zhuang, is it's the "Engine" of Hongjia?

4. I don't care what Jim thinks, if you want to believe something hard enough you will. He is free to think what he wants, but just because him and the rest of the "League of Extraordinary Gentleman" believe it doesn't mean I have to buy into it.

When I learned WC I learned it all, questions were asked and answered with explanation. Nothing was left out. I don't want your "Snake Engine" technology, my WC works just fine without it. Quit trying to convince me I'm wrong when you can't even answer one question I've posed. You assume that my WC is incomplete and that I lack understanding because of what the Cho Family ancestors say in a document? Horsesh!t, this is all some big ruse that you and the rest of the "League of Extraordinary Gentleman" are trying to pull off. What a new book coming out? Trying to chum the waters before it's release? I'm not buying into any of this BULLSH!T! Not one shred of tangible evidence has been put forth that I haven't already refuted. You want me to fall in line? All you or anyone else has to do is answer my GODD@MN questions and convince me! So far what I've laid out on the table has not even been acknowledged let alone responded to. As far as this mysterious Fu Wei Zhong character is concerned, why wouldn't he claim that Emei Shier Zhuang is the root of WC it's good publicity for him. You want to settle this matter have him produce a document stating that someone from the Wing Chun line inherited this art. He is the Grand Master after all, and only a few of the 12 posts have been taught to the public since it's inception. They have a lineage chart don't they, claiming who is qualified to pass on the material and who they taught it to?

Uh, no offense Dave. But I think this qualifies as a "heightened emotional state".