http://youtu.be/8JybRSpdFJQ
New clip showing the difference between CSL Wing Chun and western Boxing
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http://youtu.be/8JybRSpdFJQ
New clip showing the difference between CSL Wing Chun and western Boxing
Registered User
Interesting clip. You focus on the mechanical differences. I have some quibbles about some of your observations about boxing mechanics but from my perspective the big difference between boxing and wing chun is strategic. Boxing goes about fist fighting using a different strategy than wing chun so that leads to differences in tactics and that to differences in tools and there mechanics. Still no one can argue with your success.Originally Posted by Alan Orr
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First up, thanks for posting the clip - probably it was largely in response to some of the questions raised here, so thanks for taking the time to make it.
I understand better, as a result, what you're saying regarding the CSL punching methods - so it helps clear up a few things for me. I can see how the punching methods you show in this clip would fit with your Wing Chun (elbow position, no obvious torso rotation, sinking, etc).
My only comment would be that in the light sparring clip (posted up on the other thread), your fighters were often using some of the rotation that fits more with your description of western boxing, and also, in particular, they were often punching with the elbow out and it not coming back in when they reach the target. So the elbow was out and stayed out.
I don't know... I don't want this to turn into another 30 pages of rants from both sides - I think, to me, that light sparring clip still shows me things that differ from the clip you've just posted. Maybe this is just down to the format of the light sparring itself.
This, the format, is maybe the biggest difference for me. And it obviously applies to the actual MMA fights too. You talked about 'feeling out' the opponent. I don't compete, but I can see that in a competition you would need to do this. I don't approach my sparring in quite this way. Not saying your way is wrong - it is surely right for preparing your guys for a competitive event, and it works for them - but when I spar I don't try to do this (feel out the opponent).
Regarding the Biu Tse form and covering and moving the head - I think your CSL method and the LTWT method I learn have a different interpretation of the idea there. Not a problem for me, we just see things a little differently. So what your saying in that respect doesn't fit with my WT, but I get that it would fit with your CSL WC.
But again, thanks for making the clip - I appreciate that you took the time to do it, and it does help me understand more of what you're doing with the CSL WC method.
For sure.
Last edited by BPWT..; 05-05-2014 at 03:47 PM.
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First up, thanks for posting the clip - probably it was largely in response to some of the questions raised here, so thanks for taking the time to make it.
I understand better, as a result, what you're saying regarding the CSL punching methods - so it helps clear up a few things for me. I can see how the punching methods you show in this clip would fit with your Wing Chun (elbow position, no obvious torso rotation, sinking, etc).
My only comment would be that in the light sparring clip (posted up on the other thread), your fighters were often using some of the rotation that fits more with your description of western boxing, and also, in particular, they were often punching with the elbow out and it not coming back in when they reach the target. So the elbow was out and stayed out.
I don't know... I don't want this to turn into another 30 pages of rants from both sides - I think, to me, that light sparring clip still shows me things that differ from the clip you've just posted. Maybe this is just down to the format of the light sparring itself.
This, the format, is maybe the biggest difference for me. And it obviously applies to the actual MMA fights too. You talked about 'feeling out' the opponent. I don't compete, but I can see that in a competition you would need to do this. I don't approach my sparring in quite this way. Not saying your way is wrong - it is surely right for preparing your guys for a competitive event, and it works for them - but when I spar I don't try to do this (feel out the opponent).
Regarding the Biu Tse form and covering and moving the head - I think your CSL method and the LTWT method I learn have a different interpretation of the idea there. Not a problem for me, we just see things a little differently. So what your saying in that respect doesn't fit with my WT, but I get that it would fit with your CSL WC.
But again, thanks for making the clip - I appreciate that you took the time to do it, and it does help me understand more of what you're doing with the CSL WC method.
For sure.
Welcome.
When we are not in contact then we move as we feel. Otherwise it is hard to bridge in when the opponent is waiting for you.
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Great video Alan! Thanks and appreciate your time for making it. The way how you load your body weight and connect your arm is definately wck body structure. Regarding the Biu Tse form and covering and moving the head, I also agree, I think Robert probably got this aspect from the kulo wck that he studied.
A couple of quick constructive comments based on my observation:
Personally I believe wing chun was meant to be applied in the elbow striking range or what you refer to in your video as dirty boxing range, I believe the traditional wck techniques such as pak sao, lop da, tan da are meant to be applied with forward intent in this range while sticking, to trap control, and distroy the opponent's body structure and balance, not to block as you mentioned.
I agree with you about wck having different angular punches, however I feel if you use wck at the range at 5:00 into your clip where you discribed "tapping with a hammer", you are gambling since you are fighting in what Hendrik refers to as long fist distance and in my opinion wck wasn't meant to operate in that distance unless you are kicking. Also wck theory "Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung" tells us that we should not take our punch hand back to punch again as this leave a gap which can be exploited by an opponent and is not wck short range type of power generation. instead we should replace the punching hand with the other punching hand using forward intent.
At 7:45 into your clip, you mentioned feeling someone out with a concept from biu jee "to bridge that gap". I assume you are referring to the concept of Mun sao. Mun sao doesn't break contact by retreating your hand once contact has been established. It seeks contact and sticks to ask or feel what the opponent's intent or energy is. Then morphing into the appropriate wck techniques such as tan sao, bong sao etc. based on the opponent's force. Reaching out to touch the opponent's guard hand "to feel him out" and taking it back is not wck, it is the sticking and moving jabbing concept from western boxing. I think this one of the main reasons people could argue that your fighters are not using pure wck since your CSLWCK fighters retreat their hands after punching in their MMA matches. WCK is supposed to eat the opponents space up and cut off his movements.
Last edited by kung fu fighter; 05-05-2014 at 05:53 PM.
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Yes agree with what you are saying in terms of range of Wing Chun being a close bridge range.As that's the range we are best at and want to be at. It a combat sports environment you have too use all the ranges and all the tools Wing Chun has for us.
But if people still think we are not using out Wing Chun then in mind they have a set view which is not my view.
Last edited by Alan Orr; 05-06-2014 at 12:37 AM.
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I agree with this, I have alot of respect for you and your fighters for getting in the cage and mixing it up, I think you guys are doing a great job. My intent was in no way to put you or CSLWCK fighters down, just to give you a different perspective.
Last edited by kung fu fighter; 05-06-2014 at 12:35 AM.
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Totally cool. Thank you for the support.
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you are most welcome my wing chun brother!
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Great clip! Thanks for doing this Alan! I like how in the beginning of the clip you show the basic difference between the boxing "engine" and the Wing Chun "engine."
BPWT wrote:
My only comment would be that in the light sparring clip (posted up on the other thread), your fighters were often using some of the rotation that fits more with your description of western boxing, and also, in particular, they were often punching with the elbow out and it not coming back in when they reach the target. So the elbow was out and stayed out.
I don't know... I don't want this to turn into another 30 pages of rants from both sides - I think, to me, that light sparring clip still shows me things that differ from the clip you've just posted. Maybe this is just down to the format of the light sparring itself.
My intent is not to turn this into another 30 page rant either!!!! But I have to agree with BPWT that we did see at least a couple of things on those other clips that you note on this clip as being boxing and not Wing Chun. But under pressure you just do what comes out at the moment! At least now we have a much better idea of what you are striving to do in the ring and what to look for. Thanks again Alan!
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As I have said many times - we are not robots. Will train the system and apply it. Each fighter or student I teach has their own body types and movement in combat.
The principles are guide. Plus light sparring we are having fun.
It is funny too us as we could release hours of sparring but I don't have time to go over each 10 seconds on each clip on this forum lol
People need to relax and enjoy the process. It's not black or white.
Happy the clip helped in some way.
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Yes, I agree Alan. Thanks again! "Relax and enjoy the process" is great advice!
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Very welcome
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