Is Siu Lim Tao enough?

[Minghequan]

There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (小練頭; xiǎo liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?

Should the form be done at great speed and strength (like some forms of Wing Chun) or should it be softer, fluid (like Snake Crane Wing Chun for example)?

Which is better in your opinion and why?

In my Zhenlan Minghequan, we follow the adage of "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fluid & Fast" (慢是光滑，光滑是流體和快速)

[Graham H]

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?

Siu Lim Tao on its own is not enough. In fact SLT only forms the very basic fundamentals of the system. Not only physical but also mentally SLT acts as the foundation form.
The form consists of actions and ideas that have been dismantled and separated so that the student can learn the core elements. Translated as “the small (or young) idea” it begins the process of growth. Certain basic strategic concepts such as facing square to the opponent, the central line idea and force generation are all inside. Basic co-ordination and synchronized actions teach the student how to move the arms but only in a one dimensional context.

Fundamental simplification of human actions and error correction.

Without Chum Kiu, SLT actually makes no sense because we are not rotating or moving the stance in any way. Just training the structure of it. The integration of the hip/elbow force rotation has not yet been introduced. How we can control our actions through abrupt stopping and starting has not been introduced. Balance, mobility, kicking, footwork ideas and punching concepts are added in CK but now in a three dimensional way so that the student can learn how to apply Ving Tsun correctly using simple and direct methods.

As well as SLT, Chum Kiu movements and ideas are abstract. They are learning tools broken down for individual needs. The cycle of chi sau – gwoh sau – sparring we learn to apply these ideas.

So the answer to your question in my opinion is NO! SLT is pointless without the rest of the system. People that think SLT is a fighting form in which one can survive a fight using it's methods have very basic and misinterpreted understanding of the system. People that do not have a sound understanding of the rest will obviously over indulge in SLT and this is incorrect. You can see the problem everywhere. People trying to chain blast up the middle fighting from YJKYM position.

No wonder the system gets so much bad press these days.

You only have to read through Hendriks posts to see what problems we have out there in the big wide world. Snake worm engine theories, or whatever, for fighting are for people that live in clouds.

Troll over xx

[KPM]

Good post Graham! One "unofficial" kuen kuit I've heard is "Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao."

Siu Lim Tao on its own is not enough. In fact SLT only forms the very basic fundamentals of the system. Not only physical but also mentally SLT acts as the foundation form.
The form consists of actions and ideas that have been dismantled and separated so that the student can learn the core elements. Translated as “the small (or young) idea” it begins the process of growth. Certain basic strategic concepts such as facing square to the opponent, the central line idea and force generation are all inside. Basic co-ordination and synchronized actions teach the student how to move the arms but only in a one dimensional context.

Fundamental simplification of human actions and error correction.

Without Chum Kiu, SLT actually makes no sense because we are not rotating or moving the stance in any way. Just training the structure of it. The integration of the hip/elbow force rotation has not yet been introduced. How we can control our actions through abrupt stopping and starting has not been introduced. Balance, mobility, kicking, footwork ideas and punching concepts are added in CK but now in a three dimensional way so that the student can learn how to apply Ving Tsun correctly using simple and direct methods.

As well as SLT, Chum Kiu movements and ideas are abstract. They are learning tools broken down for individual needs. The cycle of chi sau – gwoh sau – sparring we learn to apply these ideas.

So the answer to your question in my opinion is NO! SLT is pointless without the rest of the system. People that think SLT is a fighting form in which one can survive a fight using it's methods have very basic and misinterpreted understanding of the system. People that do not have a sound understanding of the rest will obviously over indulge in SLT and this is incorrect. You can see the problem everywhere. People trying to chain blast up the middle fighting from YJKYM position.

No wonder the system gets so much bad press these days.

You only have to read through Hendriks posts to see what problems we have out there in the big wide world. Snake worm engine theories, or whatever, for fighting are for people that live in clouds.

Troll over xx

[deejaye72]

"unofficial" kuen kuit I've heard is "Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao."

i've heard that one to keith, i always liked it. my sigung always says the two most important forms in the wing chun system are
siu nim tao and chum kiu.

[Graham H]

i've heard that one to keith, i always liked it. my sigung always says the two most important forms in the wing chun system are
siu nim tao and chum kiu.

Not true (IMO)

They are all as important as each other. It is a complete system and only dismantled for learning purposes.

[Ali. R]

Sli Lum Tao is more than enough, with the teacher.


Take care,

[deejaye72]

Not true (IMO)

They are all as important as each other. It is a complete system and only dismantled for learning purposes.

true i agree. i think he is just trying to emphasize how important the first steps are.

[Graham H]

Good post Graham! One "unofficial" kuen kuit I've heard is "Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao."

Very true Keith. Some people can't see the wood for the trees and all of a sudden SLT becomes something it was never meant to be (IMO). Every system needs a foundation and start point. SLT is like the alphabet. I could not have a conversation with you in letters. We have to form sentences then conversations and SLT cannot do that alone.

SLT is very important and should be continually practiced through-out the practitioners life time of Ving Tsun.

As for the "kuen kuit" everybody is entitled to their own opinion on it.

I personally don't like it............

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1267451]There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (小練頭; xiǎo liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

(((SLT is the most important fundamental text book for those who are interested in an Ip Man approach to kung fu training. SLT has different sections- each with principles built into them while developing structure strength. I have been doing wing chun since 1976- except for three days I have done slt every day sometimes more than once a day.
When done right slt has breathing principles. The first section when done slowly trains the fundamental tan, bong(wu), fok families of motions and the huen.

The chum kiu builds principles of full body motion on top pf the structure developed in slt.
You never finish mastering wing chun if you are serious about the wing chun way. There are other ways and depending on the competence of the teaching
and the practice and the experience- there are diversities in wing chun training..))Joy

[Graham H]

The first section when done slowly trains the fundamental tan, bong(wu), fok families of motions and the huen.

So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.

[Ali. R]

So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.

That’s for you to find out within three to six months of SLT training.


Take care,

[Graham H]

That’s for you to find out within three to six months of SLT training.


Take care,

I know exactly why "i" practice these things but the reasons why across the lineages mostly contradict each other. maybe you could offer your opinion as well as Joy. After all they are most important and maybe we could benefit from your years of mastery!

[Hendrik]

So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.

Tan , bong, Fook, and kei Are the basic four motion to cover the receiving and sending handling of the x y z axis or + in front of one's center line. Train slowly to buildup force flow path and force flow in and out from the ground. Fook or any move, train Gradually is to make sure the handling of receivng and sending is even, effecient, and continous.
The emei snake slide worm move technology of joints handling is core of making this happen.


A great crystal clear top down designed, when see it as it is .

[Graham H]

Tan , bong, Fook, and kei Are the basic four motion to cover the receiving and sending handling of the x y z axis or + in front of one's center line. Train slowly to buildup force flow path and force flow in and out from the ground. Gradually is to make sure the handling of receivng and sending is even effecient, and continous.
The emei snake slide worm move technology of joints handling is core of making this happen.


A great crystal clear top down designed, when see it as it is .

What do they send and receive? You are saying that Bong, Tan and Fook receive oncoming punches? Really?

So why only one Tan and three Fook in the beginning? Fook recieves more punches?!

[Hendrik]

What do they send and receive? You are saying that Bong, Tan and Fook receive oncoming punches? Really?

So why only one Tan and three Fook in the beginning? Fook recieves more punches?!

Read Gm Ipman interview on his description of wck .
The same wck him or me,
I am only filling the gap on how to get there with emei 12 zhuang technology in the SNT design.