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Thread: Is Siu Lim Tao enough?

  1. #1

    Is Siu Lim Tao enough?

    There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (小練頭; xiǎo lin tu) on the forum lately.

    As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

    Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?

    Should the form be done at great speed and strength (like some forms of Wing Chun) or should it be softer, fluid (like Snake Crane Wing Chun for example)?

    Which is better in your opinion and why?

    In my Zhenlan Minghequan, we follow the adage of "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fluid & Fast" (慢是光滑,光滑是流體和快速)

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Minghequan View Post

    As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

    Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?
    Siu Lim Tao on its own is not enough. In fact SLT only forms the very basic fundamentals of the system. Not only physical but also mentally SLT acts as the foundation form.
    The form consists of actions and ideas that have been dismantled and separated so that the student can learn the core elements. Translated as the small (or young) idea it begins the process of growth. Certain basic strategic concepts such as facing square to the opponent, the central line idea and force generation are all inside. Basic co-ordination and synchronized actions teach the student how to move the arms but only in a one dimensional context.

    Fundamental simplification of human actions and error correction.

    Without Chum Kiu, SLT actually makes no sense because we are not rotating or moving the stance in any way. Just training the structure of it. The integration of the hip/elbow force rotation has not yet been introduced. How we can control our actions through abrupt stopping and starting has not been introduced. Balance, mobility, kicking, footwork ideas and punching concepts are added in CK but now in a three dimensional way so that the student can learn how to apply Ving Tsun correctly using simple and direct methods.

    As well as SLT, Chum Kiu movements and ideas are abstract. They are learning tools broken down for individual needs. The cycle of chi sau gwoh sau sparring we learn to apply these ideas.

    So the answer to your question in my opinion is NO! SLT is pointless without the rest of the system. People that think SLT is a fighting form in which one can survive a fight using it's methods have very basic and misinterpreted understanding of the system. People that do not have a sound understanding of the rest will obviously over indulge in SLT and this is incorrect. You can see the problem everywhere. People trying to chain blast up the middle fighting from YJKYM position.

    No wonder the system gets so much bad press these days.

    You only have to read through Hendriks posts to see what problems we have out there in the big wide world. Snake worm engine theories, or whatever, for fighting are for people that live in clouds.

    Troll over xx
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  3. #3
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    Good post Graham! One "unofficial" kuen kuit I've heard is "Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao."

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Siu Lim Tao on its own is not enough. In fact SLT only forms the very basic fundamentals of the system. Not only physical but also mentally SLT acts as the foundation form.
    The form consists of actions and ideas that have been dismantled and separated so that the student can learn the core elements. Translated as the small (or young) idea it begins the process of growth. Certain basic strategic concepts such as facing square to the opponent, the central line idea and force generation are all inside. Basic co-ordination and synchronized actions teach the student how to move the arms but only in a one dimensional context.

    Fundamental simplification of human actions and error correction.

    Without Chum Kiu, SLT actually makes no sense because we are not rotating or moving the stance in any way. Just training the structure of it. The integration of the hip/elbow force rotation has not yet been introduced. How we can control our actions through abrupt stopping and starting has not been introduced. Balance, mobility, kicking, footwork ideas and punching concepts are added in CK but now in a three dimensional way so that the student can learn how to apply Ving Tsun correctly using simple and direct methods.

    As well as SLT, Chum Kiu movements and ideas are abstract. They are learning tools broken down for individual needs. The cycle of chi sau gwoh sau sparring we learn to apply these ideas.

    So the answer to your question in my opinion is NO! SLT is pointless without the rest of the system. People that think SLT is a fighting form in which one can survive a fight using it's methods have very basic and misinterpreted understanding of the system. People that do not have a sound understanding of the rest will obviously over indulge in SLT and this is incorrect. You can see the problem everywhere. People trying to chain blast up the middle fighting from YJKYM position.

    No wonder the system gets so much bad press these days.

    You only have to read through Hendriks posts to see what problems we have out there in the big wide world. Snake worm engine theories, or whatever, for fighting are for people that live in clouds.

    Troll over xx

  4. #4
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    "unofficial" kuen kuit I've heard is "Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao."
    i've heard that one to keith, i always liked it. my sigung always says the two most important forms in the wing chun system are
    siu nim tao and chum kiu.
    sincerly, eddie

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Good post Graham! One "unofficial" kuen kuit I've heard is "Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao."
    Very true Keith. Some people can't see the wood for the trees and all of a sudden SLT becomes something it was never meant to be (IMO). Every system needs a foundation and start point. SLT is like the alphabet. I could not have a conversation with you in letters. We have to form sentences then conversations and SLT cannot do that alone.

    SLT is very important and should be continually practiced through-out the practitioners life time of Ving Tsun.

    As for the "kuen kuit" everybody is entitled to their own opinion on it.

    I personally don't like it............
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by deejaye72 View Post
    i've heard that one to keith, i always liked it. my sigung always says the two most important forms in the wing chun system are
    siu nim tao and chum kiu.
    Not true (IMO)

    They are all as important as each other. It is a complete system and only dismantled for learning purposes.
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  7. #7
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    Sli Lum Tao is more than enough, with the teacher.


    Take care,

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Not true (IMO)

    They are all as important as each other. It is a complete system and only dismantled for learning purposes.
    true i agree. i think he is just trying to emphasize how important the first steps are.
    sincerly, eddie

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by deejaye72 View Post
    true i agree. i think he is just trying to emphasize how important the first steps are.
    In that context I agree
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    Sli Lum Tao is more than enough, with the teacher.


    Take care,
    For you perhaps but then you are the guy that thinks things take 20 years to master. You and your students may agree but I do not! Ving Tsun is a very simple, clear and precise system. The students hard work and willingemss to apply determines their proficiency. Sure skill comes from time spent practicing but that is where it ends otherwise maybe we can't become good at Vt until we have checked into the old people's home!
    Last edited by Graham H; 05-07-2014 at 05:34 AM.
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  11. #11
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    No one "needs" any form, no forms are actually "needed" any any MA system.
    That said, when used properly and for what they were designed for by those that developed them, they certainly help.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #12
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    That's Funny

    Good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    For you perhaps but then you are the guy that thinks things take 20 years to master. You and your students may agree but I do not! Ving Tsun is a very simple, clear and precise system. The students hard work and willingemss to apply determines their proficiency. Sure skill comes from time spent practicing but that is where it ends otherwise maybe we can't become good at Vt until we have checked into the old people's home!

    No one said anything about not being good in what you do, that has nothing to do with it. Its not how good you are, but how good you can be. Master your SLT (fundamentals) and dont worry about the other stuff before its time.


    Take care,

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    No one "needs" any form, no forms are actually "needed" any any MA system.
    That said, when used properly and for what they were designed for by those that developed them, they certainly help.
    How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me.

    That's like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC's. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

    The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That's the way it is.

    No need for it?????????????????????
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    Good one.




    No one said anything about not being good in what you do, that has nothing to do with it. Its not how good you are, but how good you can be. Master your SLT (fundamentals) and dont worry about the other stuff before its time.


    Take care,
    Yes and that time is when a student is ready. Depending on the student with dilligent training then 3-6 months is no problem otherwise it will in fact cause errors. SLT then becomes a maintenance form. No need for any other ideas.

    i don't want a sparring match with you. Our systems could not be more different. I prefer other ideas.
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me.

    That's like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC's. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

    The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That's the way it is.

    No need for it?????????????????????
    I agree, but, I knew a guy who trained for 4 years just doing chi-sau and serious sparring on a regular basis. His teacher never taught him the forms. He wiped the floor with a group of guys boasting 10+ years in their CMAs.

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