Is Siu Lim Tao enough?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with Graham. Even boxing has "forms" to an extent. IMHO, western boxing trains forms in a San Sik format. Every time a boxer drills a combination of 3 movements that is essentially a San Sik. They learn the basic combos like "jab, cross, hook" and then work it on the pads, against the heavy bag, and with a partner.

SLT, or any prearranged/pre-choreographed form is nothing like the "forms" in boxing and you know that.
What makes boxing "shadow boxing forms" beneficial to boxers is that they are NOT prearranged or prechoreagraphed BUT that they flow from the fighter without any set predetermined sequence.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1267485]So in your way they are for blocking punches?[/QUOTE-----------------------------
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Not just blocking punches...for hand structures and their applications for wing chun approach to martial development.

Hands have to be coordinated with body structure and footwork embedded in chum kiu, biu jee, mok jong, kwan
and bot jam do. Its all put together for development- and put into dan chi sao, poon sao, luk sao, lop sao, gor sao.
lat sao, man sao and related two person timing drills. All this for development. It is not fighting itself.
If you have to fight- you fight

[kung fu fighter]

There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (小練頭; xiǎo liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?

Depends on which linage you are speaking about, in the Yik Kam linage it is because the concepts and ideas of all 3 empty hands sets are imbeded in their SLT set. In the 3 set system, no it's only the foundation form.

Should the form be done at great speed and strength (like some forms of Wing Chun) or should it be softer, fluid (like Snake Crane Wing Chun for example)?

Which is better in your opinion and why?

In my Zhenlan Minghequan, we follow the adage of "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fluid & Fast" (慢是光滑，光滑是流體和快速)

Besides what Hendrik already mentioned, I have seen the form done with different emphasis.

I remember Ho Kam Ming teaching the form with dynamic tension to re-enforce structure.
Fung Keung does it smooth and slow with a soft emphasis to cultivate chi
And others do it with Ging with a fighting emphasis.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1267501]Depends on which linage you are speaking about, in the Yik Kam linage it is because the concepts and ideas of all 3 empty hands sets are imbeded in their SLT set. In the 3 set system, no it's only the foundation form.



Besides what Hendrik already mentioned, I have seen the form done with different emphasis.

I remember Ho Kam Ming teaching the form with dynamic tension to re-enforce structure.

Navin: ((Not really. Dynamic tension is not the right description.. Correct and balanced movement IMO))Joy

[KPM]

SLT, or any prearranged/pre-choreographed form is nothing like the "forms" in boxing and you know that.
What makes boxing "shadow boxing forms" beneficial to boxers is that they are NOT prearranged or prechoreagraphed BUT that they flow from the fighter without any set predetermined sequence.

Are you saying that combinations of 3 moves are not "predetermined?" If a fighter has a series of combo's to work on like Jab/Cross/Hook, Jab/Jab/Cross, or Hook/Cross/Hook are those not "predetermined"? Maybe you are unaware of what makes a San Sik. But in the Wing Chun I train there is no long SLT form. There are San Siks of approximately 3 moves each. They are trained much like boxing combinations and are considered short "forms."

[Vajramusti]

Depends on which linage you are speaking about, in the Yik Kam linage it is because the concepts and ideas of all 3 empty hands sets are imbeded in their SLT set. In the 3 set system, no it's only the foundation form.



Besides what Hendrik already mentioned, I have seen the form done with different emphasis.

I remember Ho Kam Ming teaching the form with dynamic tension to re-enforce structure.
Fung Keung does it smooth and slow with a soft emphasis to cultivate chi
And others do it with Ging with a fighting emphasis.

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Ho Kam ming does not do Charles Atlas dynamic tension- just controlled motion and structure.

No comment on YKor Fung. There are many lineages. Each to his own.

[Vajramusti]

Are you saying that combinations of 3 moves are not "predetermined?" If a fighter has a series of combo's to work on like Jab/Cross/Hook, Jab/Jab/Cross, or Hook/Cross/Hook are those not "predetermined"? Maybe you are unaware of what makes a San Sik. But in the Wing Chun I train there is no long SLT form. There are San Siks of approximately 3 moves each. They are trained much like boxing combinations and are considered short "forms."

-----------------------------------
I try- don't always succeed in discussing labels and definitions or atleasst arguing about them.
Boxing has combinations of techniques-- not really forms. But jabs, hooks, cross, uppercuts
result in many permutations and combinations of punches- within refereed rules.

In what I do there are single hand and double hand san sik motions...in varying possible sequences.
I dont call them forms.

[Hendrik]

Traditional way or one own intepletation way


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...07#post1267507

[kung fu fighter]

Navin: ((Not really. Dynamic tension is not the right description.. Correct and balanced movement IMO)) Ho Kam ming does not do Charles Atlas dynamic tension- just controlled motion and structure.

I agree joy, dynamic tension was the closest discription I could think of to explain the tension used to maintain controlled motion structure.

[Hendrik]

I agree joy, dynamic tension was the closest discription I could think of to explain the tension used to maintain controlled motion in the structure.

Actually, dynamic tension to describe SNT practice is not accurate if I may picky.


Once there is tension, there is local tensing. It will lost the adaptability .

Dynamic muscle handling is what I think accurate .

[sanjuro_ronin]

-----------------------------------
I try- don't always succeed in discussing labels and definitions or atleasst arguing about them.
Boxing has combinations of techniques-- not really forms. But jabs, hooks, cross, uppercuts
result in many permutations and combinations of punches- within refereed rules.

In what I do there are single hand and double hand san sik motions...in varying possible sequences.
I dont call them forms.

This.
Forms are predetermined AND choreographed moves that the probationer must follow in sequence.
SLT is a form.
Doing combinations in whatever manner you decide is NOT a form.

[tc101]

Are you saying that combinations of 3 moves are not "predetermined?" If a fighter has a series of combo's to work on like Jab/Cross/Hook, Jab/Jab/Cross, or Hook/Cross/Hook are those not "predetermined"? Maybe you are unaware of what makes a San Sik. But in the Wing Chun I train there is no long SLT form. There are San Siks of approximately 3 moves each. They are trained much like boxing combinations and are considered short "forms."

Here's the thing boxers took combinations they found were actually occurring when they sparred and fought and then practice them on the bags mitts and so on. I can show you or you can find videos of these combos in sparring or fighting very easily.

Can you show me any videos of wing chun sparring where you or anyone are using your San Sik with any regularity?

That is why boxing combinations are not forms and your San Sik is.

[Minghequan]

Thanks for the discussion. It's good to hear! Thank you all for sharing .... yes even you Hendrik ("Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice!" ... its a joke! )

I think SNT is for Wing Chun what SanZhan is for White Crane ... a pivotal form of some importance because it encapsulates the main concepts and principles of the respective arts.

[GlennR]

So in your way they are for blocking punches?

Princess Graham.......... youre back!

[Graham H]

Princess Graham.......... youre back!

It was a pit stop and one I wish I hadn't made, sweety! xx

Ciao