A question on Sanshi/Sansik

[Minghequan]

Hi Guys,

This is a follow on from another thread in which it was stated that the Sanshi / Sansik was the original Wing Chun.

I am wondering if anyone here knows or has some documented aspects as to what those original aspects were???

I though that this may make for an interesting discussion?

[KPM]

Hi Guys,

This is a follow on from another thread in which it was stated that the Sanshi / Sansik was the original Wing Chun.

I am wondering if anyone here knows or has some documented aspects as to what those original aspects were???

I though that this may make for an interesting discussion?

Documented? I don't think much has been documented. What has been documented is cryptic poetry and "Kuen Kuit." Hence the controversy when Hendrik tries to use such documentation to support his theories. Anything documented about what the "original aspects" may have been will be along the same lines and come with the same kind of controversy.

Could Wing Chun have started out as a San Sik system, and was Leung Jan reverting back to this more original teaching when he retired and taught in Ku Lo village? It is possible. It makes sense that in developing a martial art you would start out by making short sequences and application drills to test the validity of what you are doing. Then at some point in the lineage someone would string these San Sik together into a longer form for ease of practice and teaching. And IMHO Wing Chun forms are not like some CMA forms that try and mimic a fight. Wing Chun forms are more of a catalogue of techniques and concepts in small "chunks" much like San Sik strung together.

I've heard that White Crane was taught as a San Sik method early on. But I don't know much about White Crane. Have you ever heard that Ron? Are there any other CMA's taught as a San Sik method?


Could Wing Chun have started out as one very long form that was later broken up into the 3 form system of SLT, CK, and BJ? That is possible as well. If Wing Chun started out with a base art (such as White Crane or Emei) that was then modified and adapted from input from another art (such as White Crane or Emei) then it makes sense that a pre-existing long form would have been adapted and changed to create the Wing Chun version. A long form would have likely been taught to students in stages as their abilities and knowledged increased. Later on those "stages" may have been formalized and the long form taught as 3 separate forms. When I was doing Yip Man WCK we would often practice SLT, CK, and BJ as one long form.

The thing I that in my opinion is unlikely, is that Wing Chun was taught as a 3 form system (SLT, CK, BJ) right from the start. I think this was a later evolution.

[deejaye72]

good post keith

[Hendrik]

Technical speaking, according to ancient Chinese martial Art tradition,

The term San sik is a scenerio of applications.


The tradition is as the following.


Ie.

Wck concept is " come Receive, goes send, "

Snt is the part responsible to develop the engine to support the Wck concept.which is the body Kung part of the Wck.

San sik is a scenario of application to implement the Wck concept, which is the sau fatt or application technics of the Wck.


Thus,
San sik cannot be San Kung per traditional practice.


For those who is interested in the full view on traditional Chinese logic
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...03#post1266803




However, many people due to some reasons like to interplate things as they like.
The argument is " one can link many San sik to replace a set".

If that is the case, then one better define which San sik combine or link together to develop which Sang Kung.
And when is the term San sik means application scenerio and when it means engine development process.




But then will create an issue of naming cup as bow for common people who use traditional as standard
And no one will know do one means cup or bow under the traditional practice.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1267507]Technical speaking, according to ancient Chinese martial Art tradition,

The term San sik is a scenerio of applications.

----------

understood

[Minghequan]

Keith, Read the title of this thread and then read my post ..... where did I mention Hendrik???

Do you have an agenda here?

There was no mention or even hint about Hendrik so why raise him in the very first paragraph of your reply??? I believe that if you say his name three times he appears ... "Hendrik, Hendrik" ... Oh no, that was "Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice!" Could you have not explained you point of view without evoking Hendrik ..... yet again!

I've heard that White Crane was taught as a San Sik method early on. But I don't know much about White Crane. Have you ever heard that Ron?

Master Lee Kong and Master Su YingHan wrote an article “Yong Chun White Crane Boxing – Development & Revolution” in which they concluded that early White Crane Boxing only had direct fighting methods. The completed forms emerged out of the research and development of later generations of practitioners.

“(Early) White Crane Boxing Method, was a collection of postures, applications and footwork which were practiced individually, the forms were short sequences or simple repetitive movements. As “Fang Qilang’s White Crane 15 Postures” from the “White Crane Spiritual Ancestor True Transmission Method” records: [Falling [ ], Chopping Fist, the Returning Dragon injests the Treasure, the Golden Rooster plays with its claws, the Black Dragon sweeps the earth, [Striking the Maple], the Green Dragon crosses the Road, the North Star kicks the big Dipper, Single headed Tiger, Two Dragons playing with a pearl, grasping hand, the ghost pulls an inch, Heart Piercing Palm, the White horse rears its hooves, Child tumbling on the ground] the fifteen postures… these fifteen postures were the earliest seen recorded in any boxing manual”

As part of a further insight into original White Crane we have the story of Master Bai Jie, student of Bai He Quan founder, Fang Qiniang. One of the 28 heroes, Bai Jie trained at the Jiao Lian temple. This temple was renamed Xiao Lian Si (Small Training Temple) by Madam Fang. Bai Jie was famous for two reasons, for teaching Shi Lang the commander of the Chinese fleet that invaded Taiwan in 1683 upon the order of Emperor Kang Xi and for developing the Cun Jin Jie Li (Inch Power Connecting Strength) method of White Crane. It is also legend that the original method of White Crane developed by Fang Qiniang was a sanshi method that contained no forms. The forms were developed by her husband Zheng Si Chu and her students later on.

If Wing Chun started out with a base art (such as White Crane or Emei) that was then modified and adapted from input from another art (such as White Crane or Emei) then it makes sense that a pre-existing long form would have been adapted and changed to create the Wing Chun version.

Again with the Emei stuff. Jeez Louise I honestly don't believe there is any Emei in Wing Chun and I have it on very good authority from someone who not only writes about the art but also practices it on a daily basis and no, before you ask who that is, I'll do a "Hendrik" (Seeing as it was you who referenced him here) and say something like "Look and you may see" (Sound "Fortune Cookie Buddhist" enough for ya all!) ............

Now can we try to have a discussion about the actual topic of this thread without constantly evoking the "Hendrik" factor

[Vajramusti]

Keith, Read the title of this thread and then read my post ..... where did I mention Hendrik???

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is your point?

[Minghequan]

My point is simply this and I would have thought it obvious .......... This thread is about the Sanshi .... no mention of Hendrik's views were necessary as I believe Hendrik is capable of making his own views known without a "fan club".

Again, This thread is about the Sanshi.

[Vajramusti]

Keith, Read the title of this thread and then read my post ..... where did I mention Hendrik???



Now can we try to have a discussion about the actual topic of this thread without constantly evoking the "Hendrik" factor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron
I did not see a problem with Keith's post or Hendrik's comments on san sik.

In the mad hatter's party that KFO is, the thread has not been outrageous so far compared to many.. Your comments on crane were interesting.
However wing chun history is pretty speculative going backwards beyond Leun Jan.
Lots of things wee synthesized to make the wing chun quilt.

Real syntheses are no longer their constituent elements.

[KPM]

Keith, Read the title of this thread and then read my post ..... where did I mention Hendrik???

Do you have an agenda here?

Well, excuse the He!! out of me Ron! I thought this was a free country and an open forum and we weren't excluding specific people here. I only mentioned Hendrik in the context of you asking for documentation that is obviously going to be along the same lines as the documentation that Hendrik has been using. Should I have said "you know who" instead of using his name? My POINT was that any documentation such as you asked for would likely meet with the same kind of controversy. Sorry if it took mentioning "you know who" to make that point. Do want to have an actual productive discussion or not?



Master Lee Kong and Master Su YingHan wrote an article “Yong Chun White Crane Boxing – Development & Revolution” in which they concluded that early White Crane Boxing only had direct fighting methods. The completed forms emerged out of the research and development of later generations of practitioners.

Thanks for the input. I thought I had read something along those lines before. And the White Crane forms I have seen, like Wing Chun forms, often look like San Sik strung together to me rather than an imaginary fight with an opponent.


Again with the Emei stuff. Jeez Louise I honestly don't believe there is any Emei in Wing Chun

Like I've said in the past, I think there is something to the Wing Chun legend of a Snake and a Crane. There are both "snake-like" and "crane-like" elements in Wing Chun. So some kind of fusion of the two in the distant past makes sense. I haven't seen much Snake, and what I have seen doesn't look much like Wing Chun. I'm not convinced of an Emei connection, but am willing to take it at face value until something convinces me otherwise. Jim Roselando has studied Emei a bit and has a solid background in 3 different versions of Wing Chun and he thinks there is a connection. I trust his word and he is an excellent Wing Chun practitioner. So again, I am willing to take his word for it until something convinces me otherwise.


Now can we try to have a discussion about the actual topic of this thread without constantly evoking the "Hendrik" factor

It seems to me that you have "evoked" him more than I did simply by making a big deal out of it.

[Kellen Bassette]

Again with the Emei stuff. Jeez Louise I honestly don't believe there is any Emei in Wing Chun

What's your experience in training Emei?

[Minghequan]

What's your experience in training Emei?

As much as Hendrik's training in White Crane and Emei!

What's yours?

Read my post I said:

Again with the Emei stuff. Jeez Louise I honestly don't believe there is any Emei in Wing Chun and I have it on very good authority from someone who not only writes about the art but also practices it on a daily basis

Did I say I had experience of Emei there? ...... Uh no! I referenced another who I have had significant research with!

[Hendrik]

As much as Hendrik's training in White Crane and Emei!

What's yours?

Read my post I said:



Did I say I had experience of Emei there? ...... Uh no! I referenced another who I have had significant research with!

I can lead qi to flow in medirians and issue Jin as in the level three of emei 12 zhuang attainment with my SLT practice, Can you or your reference ?


release a utube in public to back your claim. Could you?


Jim rosalendo and many wcners sifu are now in boston, Gm Fu of emei is flying in, can you verify your source with witnesses as I do?

[Minghequan]

I can lead qi to flow in medirians and issue Jin as in the level three of emei 12 zhuang attainment with my SLT practice, Can you or your reference ?


release a utube in public to back your claim. Could you?


Jim rosalendo and many wcners sifu are now in boston, Gm Fu of emei is flying in, can you verify your source with witnesses as I do?

I'll tell you what Hendrick, Seeing as I (and numerous others) have asked you questions only to get a run around from you .... I'll post ALL my sources and ALL the information as presented to me if you will show yourself on a "utube???" or more accurately a Youtube Video actually applying these various aspects you have mentioned time and time again on a real person (be it a friend, someone from another school, whatever!). If not a real person then a Wooden Dummy but in a practical and life-protection application!

Surely for one such as yourself this is not too big of an ask???

If not, then I'll answer you in the same fashion as you have everyone else here!

[KPM]

As much as Hendrik's training in White Crane and Emei!

What's yours?

Read my post I said:



Did I say I had experience of Emei there? ...... Uh no! I referenced another who I have had significant research with!

Ok. Then using your standards....what is your Emei expert's experience training Wing Chun?