Inside the Yik Kam Cho Gar vs Hendrik Santos CONTROVERSY

[LFJ]

But is that structure the same one hendrick is on about?

They both talk about the "7 bows", receiving/issuing force, and whatnot in a similar fashion...

Alan also commented highly on Sergio's video demonstrating some of it.

[deejaye72]

They both talk about the "7 bows", receiving/issuing force, and whatnot in a similar fashion...

and to me it all points to hawkins cheung, it's all very similar to what he's been talking about for a long time. if they added to this knowledge, why not take credit for it? i would, screw giving the credit to someone else, especially if it works lol

[LFJ]

Well, a lot of it is just standard _ing _un. Nothing secret or advanced about it.

[tc101]

So would you like to divorce their success from these principles or Wing Chun altogether and join the likes of BPWT and KPM? Alan understands Wing Chun body structure and his fighters use it to knock people out.

Do not confuse the model with the substance.

When you really REALLY do stand up grappling or stand up striking and I mean REALLY do it in sparring you will develop good body structure and good power. All good fighters do. How do they do that? By going through a fighters training progression which is progression that helps you take your model and develop from there. How do Orr guys learn body structure? Through pressure right? Exactly it is by having to deal with the pressure that they develop the means to deal with the pressure. Put any wing chun guy under that pressure and force him to deal with it and they will develop the body structure to deal with it.

[LFJ]

Do not confuse the model with the substance.

When you really REALLY do stand up grappling or stand up striking and I mean REALLY do it in sparring you will develop good body structure and good power. All good fighters do. How do they do that? By going through a fighters training progression which is progression that helps you take your model and develop from there. How do Orr guys learn body structure? Through pressure right? Exactly it is by having to deal with the pressure that they develop the means to deal with the pressure. Put any wing chun guy under that pressure and force him to deal with it and they will develop the body structure to deal with it.

Sooo, that's a yes then?

[HybridWarrior]

Well, a lot of it is just standard _ing _un. Nothing secret or advanced about it.

Exactly!!!

[kentchang]

Originally Posted by Hendrik
1. I don't speak for all wing chun people.

I present only a fact data point exist in 1848 red boat Wck preserve in my own lineage.



2. I don't deal with history , or story.

I present hard evidence of trace able Ancient Chinese martial art DNA from multiple sources.

3. Got nothing to do with religion. I leave it to wcners to take it or leave it

Hendrik, did you ever make these claims in public? If yes, why are you denying them now?

Claim – Hendrik Santos is sole successor of Yik Kam Cho Gar Wing Chun by his Sifu Cho Hung Choy.
Claim – Hendrik Santos publicly claim Ermei 12 palms system is the mother art of all Wing Chun.
Claim – Hendrik Santos publicly claim if WCK is without Ermei 12 palms system it is not WCK.
Claim – Hendrik Santos publicly claim all WCK without the core of Ermei will die out between one generation and 30 yrs time.
Claim – Hendrik Santos just sharing his story unbias leave it up to public to accept

Why are all of these Yik Kam Cho Gar members saying that you actually made up your Ermei story, fabricated the false history of YKWC and twisted the SCWC kuit in order to fit your own agenda?

From Cho Gar family member Patrick Tham on FB, WC Malaysia page.

There is a drastic difference between students and disciples. The actual forms were only taught to immediate family members. Whereas those learning in schools within the Cho village were only taught modified forms. The original 108 complete single form was used to modify Hung Kuen, Choy Lay Fatt, etc and taught to the students. Cho Onn also did not teach the original form to his early students including Cho Hung Choy, Yeung Kam Jiang, Hendrick Santos and others. Until today, the original form is only imparted to selected closed door disciples.

None of the elders in Cho Ga has knowledge about Yik Kam's Siu Lim Tao having a hybrid of Emei 12 form ad claimed by Hendrick Santos. It is a fabrication of his own imagination.

Hendrik Santos is indeed Cho Hung Choy's disciple. No doubt about it. But Cho Hung Choy was not Cho Onn's nephew at all. He was just someone from the Cho Village in Punyu that Cho Onn was asked to bring to Nanyang as those days it was difficult to clear the immigration unless they claim to be immediate family members. When Cho Hung Choy was older, Cho Onn brought him back to Punyu to marry one of the village girls. He did not learn any martial art while he was back at the village. This was told to some of us by the Cho Ga elders when we were back at Punyu.

[kentchang]

A more concrete evidence from HS writing to Sifu Wayne Yung dated on 17 Feb 2014. After a mouse taking the cheese from Sifu yung, lying to him, washing the hands, becoming a fulltime buddhist, today, he borrows SCWC stuff to filling in his incomplete holes and highly promote his ykwc with emei. He change SCWC kuit wording to suit his emei like. He tries to promote an art no body knows before and brings it up to over 4 million wckners market. For what ? Today, we can see the tail of this mouse clearly.


Attachment 8452

Why HS approaching Sifu Wayne Yung, just waiting for the time to borrow, to take, to ..... The same approach had also done by Robert Chu.

These two mouses never understand what the traditional kung fu culture is on the other side of this earth. Of course, they are American Chineses, what their culture is only American Chinese style. They always use their standard to judge others.

Hendrik,

Why are all of these SCWC/Yik Kam Cho Gar members saying that you actually made up your Ermei story, fabricated the false history of YKWC and twisted the SCWC kuit in order to fit your own agenda?

The funny thing about this soap opera of Ermei 12 Zheung, Hendrik went to ask Sergio to promote him as a legit WC researcher. My question to Hendrik is why do you choose Sergio to sing your song and promote your fabricated history of YKWC as the mother and the origin of all Wing Chun? Most people consider Sergio as nothing more than an airhead that would take anybody's story to promote his internet channel to make money. Base on the past history, nothing legit, only fabrication of history, cherry picking stories from Sergio's channel. With that kind of reputation, you still want to choose Sergio as the promoter for your own story. You should either be ashamed of yourself for taking advantage of Sergio's inexperience in WC or for thinking the rest of us so gullible.

[anerlich]

Rick Spain has been mentioned on this thread, we have one of his students here who might chime in with clips but it has been mentioned several times over the last decade on here about him and his guys competing in kick boxing and MMA and doing very well, like Robert rick has extensive experience in other arts not just wing chun so how much what he does is pure wing chun In the ring is anyone’s guess…..

Rick Spain had 37 pro kickboxing matches and about 100 amateur kickboxing bouts. Late 70's to mid 80's. He had a number of students ranked in the top 10 state and nationals in the late 80's. Most of this happened before either Muay Thai or MMA become well known or popular in Australia. A few guys have competed in MMA in more recent times but this isn't really the focus of Rick's school any more. Anyone who wants to pursue competition will be directed to more competition oriented kickboxing/MT or MMA academies. We did have student, Nick Ariel, who beat a BJJ black belt in an MMA fight, but who competes in kickboxing today and currently trains with Alex Tui, a former Australian kickboxing titleholder.

Wanna compete and win? Train with other people who have done that and know more about it than your WC sifu does.

At 59 I'm not interested in competing but train BJJ several times a week at Sydney's oldest (and IMO best) MMA Academy, as well as teaching semi-regularly at Rick's school. I like WC but have wider interests. Specialising in one martial art is for underachievers. The world's too rich and varied to pull the wool over your own eyes.

While I admire what Alan Orr and his guys are doing, we don't have the same desire or need to prove the supremacy of Wing Chun to the world, or find some secret lost teaching, or hook up with some super secret Shaolin disciple Bhodisattva dude (who I would probably find to be a pompous d*ck if I met him face to face) to give it legitimacy. These days I do what I do to enjoy it and to motivate myself to a high standard of fitness and physical coordination. After you get to about 50 yo you get tired of this bullsh!t supremacy thing, and laugh at those around your age still on that trip and on this forum who should know better by now.

[kentchang]

What do these two guy RC + HS have to do with Sergio? Is strange? Just casual friend they want to share their cheese with or deeper selfish agenda? Why go to him after trying to pull fast one against Sifu Yung? Was Sergio in on the scam crafting by Hendrik trying to twist Kuit and make to suit his personal theory and imagination to rewrite history and tear down others? is that also Sergio agenda too, or are these two mouse taking advantage of SErgio?

I see that on that protecting real shaolin blog http://protectingrealshaolin.wordpress.com/ mentioning Sergio is one who expose frauds Andraes Hoffman and Kenneth Lin by going to source roots of those guys kung fu. I think though he gets fool by these frauds eventually he visiting their Sifu he gets the real story. Then he shows public what the truth is after getting fooled. He was fooled by poser Chi Sim Hoffman with anti Yip Man campaign and then fooled by Black Flag Kenneth Lin and Benny Meng with HKB fake Wing Chun scam. This now happen at least two times to him two strikes but will joining RC and HS become third strike for him to support this Emei fabrication or will he go to visits the elders of Cho Gar Pai for the real research?

Nothing could be more difficult for Yim Wing Chun 嚴詠春!

More lies from Hendrik and his supporters.

Originally posted by Hendrik
GM Fu identified half of the KUIT to be Emei based and GM Lee Kong agreed that the term Zhao Yang in the kuit number 18 is a White Crane term and both saw their respective arts back in the movements of the 1848 set that are the facts nothing more nothing less.

What do these mouses 武林老鼠want from Sifu Lee Kong (White Crane) Sifu Yung (Snake Crane Wing Chun) and Sifu Fu (Ermei )?

Originally posted by Minghequan
Even more ....... The Hendrik, Sergio bandwagon is falling apart!
Another thing that is worthy of a mention here to show the type of duplicity and using type of characters Hendrik and Sergio are:

Sergio approached Sifu Yung of Snake Crane Wing Chun just after Sergio's two Youtube videos on the "true origin of Wing Chun Parts 1 & 2.

He stated to Sifu Yung that he (Sergio) cannot produce his 3rd episode because of the posts posting questioning him (Sergio).

Then Sergio approached Sifu Yung wanting to promote Sifu Yung's Snake Crane Wing Chun on his seminars to Europe and the States. Sifu Yung told Sergio that he didn't need or want him ever. Wayne said "I know who he is already"

So even Hendrik's supporters and "promoters" appear to have abandoned him!

I think the only honourable thing now is for Sergio, Hendrik and those who follow and support these pairs despicable actions to offer a full retraction and public apology to Master Lee Kong and to Sifu Yung!

Thanks for Sifu Ron's report!

Sergio & Hendrik: Caught Out AGAIN!
It was I who made Sifu Lee Kong aware of the highly misleading post here by both Hendrik and Sergio!!!

Just to shine some extra light on what my good friend Sifu Yung has already posted here on the statement made by Hendrik via Sunny via Sergio regarding Lee Kong as seen on the forum:

This "statement" was sent to Sifu Lee Kong via "whatapps" last night.

Hendrik, Sunny and Sergio are lying and Lee Kong has said so in a call yesterday.

This Sunny So called Sifu Lee Kong to ask him for some training. Then Lee Kong saw Sergio tagging along with him.

Sergio showed the 1st section of his Siu Nim Tao and kuit to Lee Kong ,and whilst Master Lee Kong found some similarity in the form Master Lee Kong did not confirm any relation to his White Crane. On the kuit, Lee Kong only understood only understand one statement only related to chiuyeung, the others he didn't recognise.

Lee Kong has stated that He did teach Sunny so only on 5 sets of White Crane, but did not and has not taught Sergio.

Sergio is Sunny So's student so this is where Sergio claims the connection between Sergio's IWKA and White Crane. Master Le Kong did not state he was a teacher of Sergio or his IWKA.

I strongly believe that Master Lee Kong is not happy they made use of him, and his name and art.



1. GM Lee just find there are crane similarities of the FRONT PART of SNT.
2. On the kuits, GM Lee understand ONE STATEMENT ONLY, "竪掌沉肘單昭陽", THE REST HE DIDN'T KNOW THE MEANING.
3. On the Wing and Crane relation, the term 'Wing' GM Lee not dare to say.
4. The 'Wing' contains the Crane DNA or not, we already have mutual understanding ONLY.
5. GM Lee had asked Sifu Sunny So to clarify clearly to avoid any misunderstanding.
6. Sergio's white crane forms were taught by GM Lee student, Master Yip, because of different thinking, then breaking up
7. Then Master Yip with Sifu Michael Tang(Nephew of GM Tang Yik, and Sifu So(disciple of Tang Yik) with Sifu Sergio.
8. Sifu Sunny So only learnt 5 fighting fist forms from GM Lee many years.
9. They like to teach in IWTA, he cannot refuse, because was really taught by GM Lee., but need them to clarify clearely the transmission on their arts.


- Similarities do not mean any White Crane DNA there.
- The term 昭陽 does not be exclusively term used in White Crane, it is a common term in Fujin 五祖拳 too. Also, similaritites can also be found in Fujin 五祖拳.
- Only one statement in the kuit GM Lee recognises ( not full kuits)
- From above, Sergio never trained with GM Lee, even yesterday training, just lunch only.

Summary: There is no evidence on GM Lee Kong saying openly or privately that in Yik Kam WCK, there are any White Crane DNA, just some similarities. All Southern forms, we can find a lot of similarities in between styles because ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE LIMITED TO HAVE 2 HANDS, 2 LEGS AND A BIG BODY TRUNK ONLY. It is not strange that similarities can be found, but not DNA. Also, the term DNA is being misused by Hendrik Santo in Chinese Martial Arts.

More, what GM Fu said what the relationship between YKWC and his Emei, no body knows, just from Jim Roselando. In this Sergio's report on White Crane case, they can change and present what they like to say to public. No evidence shown from GM Fu. How can we trust those liars and their associates.

More, on the Cho's family case, all evidence provided by Hendrik not being proved. Who knows whether he made his evidence(like the simplified chars in the Ku's kuit, done by non-Chinese), his sifu's letters, and others. Are all they proved or being created by Hendrik ?

More, why Hendrik's kuits so different from Cho's family one ? Will Hendrik make up his kuit with Emei before releasing to the public ? Why only his YKWC kuit relating to Emei only ? Why other kuits in other lineages not relating to Emei ?

However, evidence show that Hendrik like to change the wording on the kuits, he like to change the meaning on SCWC kuits. He like to do whatever he like to do to match his created emei story.
Based on what has been posted here, Sifu Lee Kong said clearly and factually what they are claiming are lies.

There are a lot of contradictions on the form and the kuits, similarities doesn't mean Hendrik's so-called "DNA", only one statement in the kuit, not most kuits.

So now that Lee Kong whatapp reply has been clearly published as I requested ... there can be no doubting the truth of what so many of us hare been saying here and no doubting the lies peddled by both Hendrik and Sergio on this matter!

So to clarify: ........

Lee Kong has stated that He did teach Sunny so only on 5 sets of White Crane, but did not and has not taught Sergio nor endorsed Segio's IWKA for White Crane Gongfu!.

Sergio is Sunny So's student so this is where Sergio claims the connection between Sergio's IWKA and White Crane. Master Lee Kong did not state he was a teacher of Sergio or his nor has he recommended Sergio's IWKA as teaching Sifu Lee Kon's direct White Crane nor does Sifu Lee Kong endorse the IWKA.

This is very important as anybody reading this on KFO could after reading Hendrik's post and Sergio's lies that Sifu Lee Kong is certifying and fully backing Sergio, the IWKA and Hendrik!!!

For Hendrik and Sergio to make such a statement here is TOTALLY MISLEADING and HIGHLY DISRESPECTFUL to the viewers of this forum and shows the true colours and lack of personal Character and Wude of Hendrik, Sergio and those associated with these Wing Chun Mouses!

For Hendrik and Sergio to make such a statement here is TOTALLY MISLEADING and HIGHLY DISRESPECTFUL to Master Lee Kong and his highly esteemed White Crane Gongfu!

Hendrik and Sergio have tried to use Master Lee Kong to push their own twisted views and make believe "His-Story" and politics!

Both Hendrik and Sergio should immediately post a public retraction and apology on this forum not only to Master Lee Kong but to the other readers and members of this forum!

Ron Goninan
China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
White Crane Research Institute Inc
http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
A seeker of the way

[Minghequan]

Kentchang,

Hendrik:

1. You are not there. You don't know.

2. What Sergio do for his organization and between him and Gm Lee Kong is Strictly their business .

Thank you for this post Hendrik as it goes to show just how big of a liar and user/ taker you are!

Once again your very own words come back at you to shoot you down! You never learn do you Hendrik???

Hendrik

1. You are not there. You don't know.

No Hendrick. I was not there but then my little buddy neither were you so how can you talk about this? I know, I know, Sergio told you right? Well we have all seen just how reliable Sergio's words have been (Weng Chun / Black Flag etc)?

No I was not there Hendrik but I did get Sifu Lee Kong's thoughts and reply on the matter and I would place more faith (100%) in what Sifu Lee Kong had to say about it then what you and Sergio had to say anytime and anywhere!

Let me remind you yet again again Hendrik "Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely" so why shouldn't I ignore you completely? Lee Kong says your of no consequence and that your just a "taker", a "user" and not worth the time nor energy!



By the way, you have still not directly answered Sifu Lee Kong's assertion about you as shown plainly and clearly above .... hmmm I wonder why?

Hendrik:

2. What Sergio do for his organization and between him and Gm Lee Kong is Strictly their business

Okay Hendrik, so why did you and Sergio feel a need to publicize Sergio's "Business" her on this very forum and thread??? Why? Because you felt it would justify your cause and twisted words only to see it backfire on you both massively!

Both me and Sifu Sunny So have been training White Crane intensively and it's curriculum is now with the agreement of GM Lee Kong an official part of the IWKA technician and master programms.

Fact: At no time does Sifu Lee Kong ENDORSE Sergio's Wing Chun nor Sergio's IWKA for teaching Sifu Lee Kong's White Crane as Sergio (and you Hendrik by posting it here) falsely implied in the post here!!! That is hardly the act or words of the honourable!!!

I didn't post this. You did therefore making it the business of everyone who views this forum!

You and Sergio also used the good name of Sifu Lee Kong in a truly disrespectful and wrongful attempt at providing "support" or backing of your twisted views, How terribly using and disrespectful of you to Master Lee Kong and all who have viewed this!

Then after disrespectfully using Sifu Lee Kong's name you post the following statement by Sergio:

Stated by Sergio & Posted here by Hendrik ( * Still trying to use Sifu Lee Kong's name for their political agenda ... have you guys no honour!!!)

the last thing we want is to drag respectable grandmasters like GM FU of Emei or GM Lee Kong of Fujian White Crane into a political issue.

Really Hendrik??? Then why are you and Sergio continuing to attempt to using your own words "drag respectable grandmasters like GM FU of Emei or GM Lee Kong of Fujian White Crane into a political issue"

Even now you continue to use Sifu Lee Kong's name well after Sifu Lee Kong himself has totally refuted your use of him in connection to your agenda!

Hendrik I put it to you plainly, clearly and factually ... have you no honor? have you no respect for Sifu Lee Kong? Have you no self-respect?

So in keeping with your mate Sergio's post, you Hendrick should apologise on a public level to Sifu Lee Kong for using his name for your political agenda.

Again Hendrik:

Remember, Lee Kong said:

"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others

[Paddington]

Ron, it is clear that you are not going to get the kind of response you would like from Hendrik. Personally, I grow tired of this constant banter and that includes Hendrik's persistence with respects to grasping for 'credibility', 'origin' and 'providence' . I think the only fair way to measure Hendrik is to focus on his ideas about how wing chun should be taught; does it allow students to progress quickly? Is the art enhanced and disseminated efficiently? Does it lead to competent wing chun practitioners? These should be the terms of reference by which a critique proper should be formulated.

[Minghequan]

I grow tired of his lies and misrepresentations

[Paddington]

I grow tired of his lies and misrepresentations

That maybe so but it does not mean you have to engage in the type of behaviour that you are exhibiting.

[KPM]

That maybe so but it does not mean you have to engage in the type of behaviour that you are exhibiting.

I agree with Paddington. And I grow tired of your multiple repeat posts on various threads and juvenile taunts and responses.