More White Crane

[KPM]

Here is another video of White Crane that I came across on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhBEc6ZF7jY

The sticky hands rolling is similar to what we do in PSWCK. It is the more generic "huen sao" roll that I mentioned in a previous thread as being used in many southern CMAs. Also note the form demonstrated near the end of the clip. Lots of very "snake-like" motions. You will see many Biu Gee's as well as the "waving hands" from the YMWCK Biu Gee form or the YKSWCK SNT form that is often referred to as "snake hands". I personally didn't realize that White Crane had these "snakey" motions. It would be easy to conclude that WCK is descended directly from White Crane with no hybridization with anything else needed. Or, if White Crane was the base, any snake system added would fit in quite well since White Crane already had a "snakey" aspect. But this is all pure conjecture and not meant to incite another round of comments from "you know who." I just thought others might find this video interesting. So please, no more lectures on Emei.

Although.....if Jim Roselando is around and has some feedback from the Emei seminar in Boston this past weekend (and hopefully some video) I'd love to see it!

[tc101]

Here is another video of White Crane that I came across on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhBEc6ZF7jY

The sticky hands rolling is similar to what we do in PSWCK. It is the more generic "huen sao" roll that I mentioned in a previous thread as being used in many southern CMAs. Also note the form demonstrated near the end of the clip. Lots of very "snake-like" motions. You will see many Biu Gee's as well as the "waving hands" from the YMWCK Biu Gee form or the YKSWCK SNT form that is often referred to as "snake hands". I personally didn't realize that White Crane had these "snakey" motions. It would be easy to conclude that WCK is descended directly from White Crane with no hybridization with anything else needed. Or, if White Crane was the base, any snake system added would fit in quite well since White Crane already had a "snakey" aspect. But this is all pure conjecture and not meant to incite another round of comments from "you know who." I just thought others might find this video interesting. So please, no more lectures on Emei.

Although.....if Jim Roselando is around and has some feedback from the Emei seminar in Boston this past weekend (and hopefully some video) I'd love to see it!

Most southern fist has very similar movements so it is not surprising to see similarities when you compare any two.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few believe that all southern hands have a common system.
I agree.

[KPM]

While "southern" systems have common elements that enables them to be classified as "southern", the similarities I keep seeing between White Crane and Wing Chun seem stronger than between Wing Chun and Hung Ga or even Wing Chun and Southern Mantis or Wing Chun and Pak Mei, etc.

[kung fu fighter]

Here is another video of White Crane that I came across on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhBEc6ZF7jY

The sticky hands rolling is similar to what we do in PSWCK. It is the more generic "huen sao" roll that I mentioned in a previous thread as being used in many southern CMAs. Also note the form demonstrated near the end of the clip. Lots of very "snake-like" motions. You will see many Biu Gee's as well as the "waving hands" from the YMWCK Biu Gee form or the YKSWCK SNT form that is often referred to as "snake hands". I personally didn't realize that White Crane had these "snakey" motions. It would be easy to conclude that WCK is descended directly from White Crane with no hybridization with anything else needed. Or, if White Crane was the base, any snake system added would fit in quite well since White Crane already had a "snakey" aspect. But this is all pure conjecture and not meant to incite another round of comments from "you know who." I just thought others might find this video interesting. So please, no more lectures on Emei.

Although.....if Jim Roselando is around and has some feedback from the Emei seminar in Boston this past weekend (and hopefully some video) I'd love to see it!

Here are some Applications of the yong chun white crane system. I liked the teacup training of master Su Yinghan, it reminded me of the move drunken master lol. Their training Looks very traditional, they also have a two man sticky supt jee sao training that I liked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-OTHCGNs7o

[JPinAZ]

While "southern" systems have common elements that enables them to be classified as "southern", the similarities I keep seeing between White Crane and Wing Chun seem stronger than between Wing Chun and Hung Ga or even Wing Chun and Southern Mantis or Wing Chun and Pak Mei, etc.

I've noticed that people 'looking' for similarities between different arts will tend to see all sorts of things. While sure, there are similar hand shapes (as in a lot of southern arts) the differences I see in mechanics, root, power generation and function in application between white crane & wing chun far outweigh any similarities one may 'see' in surface level things like a few techniques.

In the end, what does it matter? I don't mean to sound snarky with this question by any means, but Wing Chun is Wing Chun, White Crane is White Crane. One has very VERY little to do with the other at this point, if they even ever did much at all. I guess I just don't understand why there is this constant quest to link 2 arts that, while sharing a few similar looking hand shapes, are so different in the real meat of things (application, mechanics, etc and most importantly - concept & principle).

[KPM]

I've noticed that people 'looking' for similarities between different arts will tend to see all sorts of things.

And I've noticed that people that really down-play the existence of similarities between different arts tend to miss all kinds of things that seem pretty obvious to others.


In the end, what does it matter?

It only matters to people interested in history.

[Grumblegeezer]

I've noticed that people 'looking' for similarities between different arts will tend to see all sorts of things.

And I've noticed that people that really down-play the existence of similarities between different arts tend to miss all kinds of things that seem pretty obvious to others.


In the end, what does it matter?

It only matters to people interested in history.

I don't know if they miss those things. I think it's more about what you are looking for. Some folks focus on the leaves of the tree, others take in the whole forest. Both contribute to the total body of knowledge.

Personally, I'm the type that looks broadly at the forest. Accordingly, I miss a lot of important details. But on the other hand, I really enjoy finding those big connections. It's all good....

[JPinAZ]

I've noticed that people 'looking' for similarities between different arts will tend to see all sorts of things.

And I've noticed that people that really down-play the existence of similarities between different arts tend to miss all kinds of things that seem pretty obvious to others.

In the end, what does it matter?

It only matters to people interested in history.

I'm not downplaying or missing anything. If one looks hard enough, I bet they can find technique & shape similarities to those found in wing chun in a lot of arts, some not even from southern China. But that doesn't mean they have any connection to wing chun what-so-ever. My understanding of Wing Chun is that's it isn't defined by the techniques or shapes we see - it's defined by it's principle-based concepts that drive what we do. Since White Crane clearly doesn't operate under these same ideas, seeing some similar techniques doesn't really mean a whole lot, historically or otherwise.

But I guess those looking for what they want to see applies to forum posts as well... since you only cherry-picked a few 'leaves' in my post to reply too, you obviously missed the whole 'tree' (point), let alone the forest. Ahh well.

[KPM]

I'm not downplaying or missing anything. If one looks hard enough, I bet they can find technique & shape similarities to those found in wing chun in a lot of arts, some not even from southern China. But that doesn't mean they have any connection to wing chun what-so-ever. My understanding of Wing Chun is that's it isn't defined by the techniques or shapes we see - it's defined by it's principle-based concepts that drive what we do. Since White Crane clearly doesn't operate under these same ideas, seeing some similar techniques doesn't really mean a whole lot, historically or otherwise.

But I guess those looking for what they want to see applies to forum posts as well... since you only cherry-picked a few 'leaves' in my post to reply too, you obviously missed the whole 'tree' (point), let alone the forest. Ahh well.

Yeah, whatever JP. Did you even bother to watch the video? And keep in mind that the Wing Chun reference I am using is the older "Red Boat" versions from mainland China. Your mileage may vary since you don't do anything like that.

[Minghequan]

Interesting ... a post about White Crane ... by Keith no less ... and I do White Crane ...... hmmm

The people in this vid are those of Sifu Lee Kong.

Snake-like? ... sorry don't see it myself.

Connection to Wing Chun? Maybe in a few cursory movements and appearance.

But we are not looking at the external rather in internal.

I'm not downplaying or missing anything. If one looks hard enough, I bet they can find technique & shape similarities to those found in wing chun in a lot of arts, some not even from southern China. But that doesn't mean they have any connection to wing chun what-so-ever. My understanding of Wing Chun is that's it isn't defined by the techniques or shapes we see - it's defined by it's principle-based concepts that drive what we do. Since White Crane clearly doesn't operate under these same ideas, seeing some similar techniques doesn't really mean a whole lot, historically or otherwise.

But I guess those looking for what they want to see applies to forum posts as well... since you only cherry-picked a few 'leaves' in my post to reply too, you obviously missed the whole 'tree' (point), let alone the forest. Ahh well.

Agreed, sadly many will "tack on" a connection to suit their own purposes here ... at least that's what I am guessing from this post. Maybe an attempt to have a sly dig and also to back-up some of that which Hendrik has written ... who knows the motivations and means of others.

Pretty much betting my post will also be cherry-picked to pieces too!!!

Wing Chun is Wing Chun, White Crane is White Crane. If only people would leave it at that then these arts would grow far more than they appear to have on this forum. Stop looking for a "magic bullet" or "Holy Grail' ... as Master Huang Xingxian use to say "Learn less, practice more".

Training Baihequan develops the ability to bring a powerful surge of energy up from the ground, through the trunk and out of the extremities. This can speed
up development of jin (elastic-force) in students at an early stage of their practice. The reason is that training to produce the surge of energy up through the body does teach people to connect effectively to the ground, but that connection comes from a co-ordinated contraction of a chain of extensor muscles.
This hydraulic-like expansion, often accompanied by a spiral movement, can be used to hit or throw people efficiently and strongly and be used to absorb and return opponents energy.

How many people know that a stretching muscle is up to 10 times stronger than a contracting muscle? How many utilise or even understand the information that the force produced by a contracting muscle decreases with the increasing speed of the contraction while the force produced by a stretching muscle increases as the speed of stretching increases? Who can claim to train the White Crane in such a way that the jin passes rhythmically through the body in waves of stretching muscles and who, under the stress of an aggressive force, can be so internally relaxed that every muscle in their body elongates and actively stretches under the pressure, rather than contracts and shortens (or holds - unchanged) in a tense resistance? But these interesting questions barely touch on the matter. he basis of the White Crane is just this: jin is motivated by the Yi, energised by the Qi, issued from the Root and transmitted through the body in a wave of stretching muscles.

White Crane Gongfu works quietly on producing waves of movement through the body as a refinement of and a natural progression from the more commonly taught ”whole-body-moves * as-one” co-ordination. "All fluids move in waves”，and, "Forces pass through fluids by the production of waves". the impulse to move beginning at the feet and the effects of inertia and momentum as this travels through the body. Thus, a light initial elastic-wave like movement of the body being followed by a potentially elastic-wave as the body settles on to ground and the outer momentum is absorbed. The forces are stronger within this second the distance and time of absorption is much smaller than corresponding factors during the initial impulse - so the forces proportionately greater. This second wave can also absorb the opponents, increasing its power even further.

It is usual for students to wish to control the process of their learning. If this is allowed then most will just choose those elements of the teaching which fit with their superficial idea of White Crane and themselves, protecting the superficial structure of their ego and inhibiting their deep inner contact. This is incorrect teaching and incorrect learning, the responsibility for it resting with the teacher, not the naive students. During that initial time the only hope for the students to escape themselves lies with following exactly what the system prescribes, rather than their own 'bright ideas'.

Master Huang Xingxian taught that:

There are no hidden secrets in White Crane - just things too small to be readily seen by those not looking"

[KPM]

Interesting ... a post about White Crane ... by Keith no less ... and I do White Crane ...... hmmm

But you don't do Wing Chun......hmmmmm.



Snake-like? ... sorry don't see it myself.

Refer to above comment.



Connection to Wing Chun? Maybe in a few cursory movements and appearance.


Again. It only matters if you are interesting in history. If you aren't interested in history then feel free to ignore what I said.



Agreed, sadly many will "tack on" a connection to suit their own purposes here ... at least that's what I am guessing from this post. Maybe an attempt to have a sly dig and also to back-up some of that which Hendrik has written ... who knows the motivations and means of others.

Nope. No agenda. Again, I posted the video because I thougt others might find it interesting. If you or JP don't find it interesting, then you can choose to ignore it. And have you even been reading what "you know who" has been writing? Its been all about an Emei connection, not White Crane.



Pretty much betting my post will also be cherry-picked to pieces too!!!


Not Cherry picking. I just respond to what needs responding to, just like in any normal conversation. I'm not required to respond to every single thing you post.


Wing Chun is Wing Chun, White Crane is White Crane. If only people would leave it at that then these arts would grow far more than they appear to have on this forum.

Again, if you aren't interested in history and possible historical connections then please feel free to ignore any posts on the topic.




Training Baihequan develops the ability to bring a powerful surge of energy up from the ground, through the trunk and out of the extremities. This can speed
up development of jin (elastic-force) in students at an early stage of their practice. The reason is that training to produce the surge of energy up through the body does teach people to connect effectively to the ground, but that connection comes from a co-ordinated contraction of a chain of extensor muscles.
This hydraulic-like expansion, often accompanied by a spiral movement, can be used to hit or throw people efficiently and strongly and be used to absorb and return opponents energy.

Good description! But it has nothing to do with what I've written or why I started this thread, so would I be "cherry picking" if I had ignored this portion of your post?

[PalmStriker]

Have to agree with KPM about the last set in the video. No need to consider "snake fist" when the SLT Crane version is clearly being demonstrated. The Hung Kuen version looks more like Yip Man SLT. Snake must have been added into some lineages as time allowed, more so in Pan Nam or in a different expression, Yui Choi. Snakes in the Grass seem to be part of that evolution also.

[Hendrik]

Snake must have been added into some lineages as time allowed, more so in Pan Nam or in a different expression, Yui Choi. Snakes in the Grass seem to be part of that evolution also.

Snake of emei has to be there to set up the platform , otherwise, there is not SNT and Biu Jee set. Biu Jee set is practically in effective without snake engine from emei.

[Vajramusti]

Snake of emei has to be there to set up the platform , otherwise, there is not SNT and Biu Jee set. Biu Jee set is practically in effective without snake engine from emei.

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