Why are you interested in TCMA history?

[MarathonTmatt]

Yes I think if we replaced the word "history" every time with the word "stories" or "legends" then we might get a better picture.

So change the question to why are we interested in TCMA stories or legends?

Are stories and legends not as validated as written history?

People who kept great written records were Egyptians, Romans, (Egyptian thought influenced early Greek and Roman thought greatly). Usually large empires (ie China). The Mayans kept records but were mostly destroyed by the Conquistadors. In North America, records we can still see were recorded in Petroforms, rock art, stone pecking, etc. In other cases, birch bark scrolls were used, and Wampum belts. Some claim that the Cherokee alphabet, attributed to being written by George Guess in the 1800's, was actually a different version of their already existing alphabet that George Guess revised to match up with English better.

What about folk traditions and the oral tradition of the rest of the world- what about when mythology of the cosmos (astro-theology) that all cultures around the world expressed, and how this helped people understand when to plant, harvest, move on to another village, etc. In this way, a serpent-god legend that is passed down through oral tradition could just sound like a fanciful story to the untrained person, but actually has it's roots in the cosmology and belief system of a people (when certain constellations appear, etc.), who would need to understand this in their everyday/seasonal activities.

As far as martial arts I understand there may be exaggerated claims about a war general, or a great Emperor, but those claims (history becoming legend) should be understood better in their context. Why would it be important to remember certain iconic figures in such a way. Why are certain places like Mount Wudang, or Mount Hua, so relevant, and thus martial arts styles associated with these places (even if there is a lack of hard-core evidence of an art originating there). It almost seems like something in the conscious memory of the people that makes it important. Why are the 8 Immortals so benevolent? What is the source of their power? What lessons may we learn from them that we can incorporate into our understanding of human behavior, etc.

[tc101]

Are stories and legends not as validated as written history?

People who kept great written records were Egyptians, Romans, (Egyptian thought influenced early Greek and Roman thought greatly). Usually large empires (ie China). The Mayans kept records but were mostly destroyed by the Conquistadors. In North America, records we can still see were recorded in Petroforms, rock art, stone pecking, etc. In other cases, birch bark scrolls were used, and Wampum belts. Some claim that the Cherokee alphabet, attributed to being written by George Guess in the 1800's, was actually a different version of their already existing alphabet that George Guess revised to match up with English better.

What about folk traditions and the oral tradition of the rest of the world- what about when mythology of the cosmos (astro-theology) that all cultures around the world expressed, and how this helped people understand when to plant, harvest, move on to another village, etc. In this way, a serpent-god legend that is passed down through oral tradition could just sound like a fanciful story to the untrained person, but actually has it's roots in the cosmology and belief system of a people (when certain constellations appear, etc.), who would need to understand this in their everyday/seasonal activities.

As far as martial arts I understand there may be exaggerated claims about a war general, or a great Emperor, but those claims (history becoming legend) should be understood better in their context. Why would it be important to remember certain iconic figures in such a way. Why are certain places like Mount Wudang, or Mount Hua, so relevant, and thus martial arts styles associated with these places (even if there is a lack of hard-core evidence of an art originating there). It almost seems like something in the conscious memory of the people that makes it important. Why are the 8 Immortals so benevolent? What is the source of their power? What lessons may we learn from them that we can incorporate into our understanding of human behavior, etc.

It just shows how people really really really want to believe their stories and legends. There is value to Chinese legends and stories just like there is value in the old Greek legends and myths only no one bothers to argue that they are or need to be true or that they in some way have any bearing on martial art.

[MarathonTmatt]

It just shows how people really really really want to believe their stories and legends. There is value to Chinese legends and stories just like there is value in the old Greek legends and myths only no one bothers to argue that they are or need to be true or that they in some way have any bearing on martial art.

Sounds reasonable... agreed!

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is always some merit to MA stories and legends and myths.
The problem is when people think that the stories are more important than the doing or that THEY KNOW what those stories really mean and no one else does.
EX:
The story of wing chun being created by a nun that saw a fight between a snake and a crane.

Did it happen? We do NOT know.
Is it a cool story that underlines certain point about WC?
Yes.
Does it matter if the story is true at all? Nope.
Do you have to fight like a "snake' or a "crane" to be able to do WC?
Hell NO !
We are humans, nothing but humans and we fight *gasp* like humans.
So the story is good regardless of being true or not AND it can convey key points about the system BUT becomes a "bad thing" when people more focused on "sell something" than on using that the system was developed for ( fighting) make it to be more important than the reason someone developed the system.

Now, before someone chimes in on we don't know the reason someone developed a MA system:
Yes, we do know the reason why every single fighting system was developed and that is: TO FIGHT WITH.
(hopefully well enough to survive).

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269103]There is always some merit to MA stories and legends and myths.
The problem is when people think that the stories are more important than the doing or that THEY KNOW what those stories really mean and no one else does.
EX:
The story of wing chun being created by a nun that saw a fight between a snake and a crane.

Did it happen? We do NOT know.
Is it a cool story that underlines certain point about WC?
Yes.
Does it matter if the story is true at all? Nope.
Do you have to fight like a "snake' or a "crane" to be able to do WC?
Hell NO !
We are humans, nothing but humans and we fight *gasp* like humans.
So the story is good regardless of being true or not AND it can convey key points about the system BUT becomes a "bad thing" when people more focused on "sell something" than on using that the system was developed for ( fighting) make it to be more important than the reason someone developed the system.
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Some stories are useful in understanding the origins of a style, some stories are really metaphors, some are lies , few are
objective histories.
The snake and crane are not to be taken literally but aspects of the metaphors involved can give insights on motion.
But I am not here to preach.

[Rover]

Oral stories of nations are not reliable sources for history since they are created,chanced and affected by people who are tend to overstate national or cultural values.
All of the Chinese ma systems claim to having been came from temple of Shaolin,yet you will not find two exact same systems no matter how 100% shaolin made they say they are.Just like today,the name 'Shaolin' was used for advertising.Like putting Nike or Adidas logo on your stuff to sell them.

[Vajramusti]

Oral stories of nations are not reliable sources for history since they are affected by people whom tend to overstate national or cultural values.

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And this is truth and the rest is lies
The flower that once has bloomed,
Forever dies

From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayam

[r.(shaolin)]

Yes I think if we replaced the word "history" every time with the word "stories" or "legends" then we might get a better picture.

So change the question to why are we interested in TCMA stories or legends?

Are stories important to training sports/competition martial arts? I would say no, although IMO discounting ‘lineage stories’ diminishes even 'sport martial arts' greatly. Are ‘lineage stories/myths’ important to martial arts training when a life or death encounter is the reality? Absolutely. Stories are about collaboration and connection with the past. They transcend generations, they engage us through emotions and are the pathway to engaging our right brain and triggering our imagination. By engaging our imagination, we become participants in the narrative and gain knowledge and skill which otherwise only real experience can give us. Stories are how we humans think, how we are wired. To the human brain, imagined experiences are processed the same as real experiences. Stories create genuine emotions, presence (being in an actual situation), and behavioural responses. Physical training teaches us only about 25% of a skill set, strong, emotionally connected narrative does the rest. Stories have always been a primal form of teaching, one of man’s most powerful tools especially when teaching and learning life and death skills. Recent research has confirmed this. When individuals are under intense psychological stress, as in a life and death situations and the ‘reptilian coping brain’ kicks in, skills learned only though physical practice and repetition fall to the wayside. Stories passed on from one fireman to another, one SWAT team member to an other, one warrior to another, have saved many a life, and yes the story has to be a good one.
r.
www.shaolinwushu.com

[Vajramusti]

Are stories important to training sports/competition martial arts? I would say no, although IMO discounting ‘lineage stories’ diminishes even these sport martial arts greatly. Are ‘lineage stories/myths’ important to martial arts training when a life or death encounter is the reality? Absolutely. Stories are about collaboration and connection with the past. They transcend generations, they engage us through emotions and are the pathway to engaging our right brain and triggering our imagination. By engaging our imagination, we become participants in the narrative and gain knowledge and skill which otherwise only real experience can give us. Stories are how we humans think, how we are wired. To the human brain, imagined experiences are processed the same as real experiences. Stories create genuine emotions, presence (being in an actual situation), and behavioural responses. Physical training teaches us only about 25% of a skill set, strong, emotionally connected narrative does the rest. Stories have always been a primal form of teaching, one of man’s most powerful tools especially when teaching and learning life and death skills. Recent research is confirmed this. When individuals are under intense psychological stress, as in a life and death situations, the ‘reptilian coping brain’ kicks in and skills learned only though physical practice and repetition, fall to the wayside. Stories passed on from one fireman to another, one SWAT team member to an other, one warrior to another, have saved many a life, and yes the story has to be a good one.
r.
www.shaolinwushu.com

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I very much like the above post.

[Rover]

To the human brain, imagined experiences are processed the same as real experiences.

Mister,that is something i'll be thinking on and ponder for days.Thanks for it.

[Faux Newbie]

Mister,that is something i'll be thinking on and ponder for days.Thanks for it.

Traditionally, thought was considered another sense in Chinese philosophy, consciousness not. For instance, the Buddhist idea of samsara, the world of cause and effect, hold causes that often find their source in sensory input, to which one may respond. So, an intruding thought in meditation was considered no different than the sensation of a mosquito landing on you. Thus, what you imagine creates responses that treat them as real.

[Rover]

Traditionally, thought was considered another sense in Chinese philosophy, consciousness not. For instance, the Buddhist idea of samsara, the world of cause and effect, hold causes that often find their source in sensory input, to which one may respond. So, an intruding thought in meditation was considered no different than the sensation of a mosquito landing on you. Thus, what you imagine creates responses that treat them as real.

From the Matrix :
''What is real. How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. This is the world that you know.''

[David Jamieson]

From the Matrix :
''What is real. How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. This is the world that you know.''

A lot of history from any nation is outright propaganda.
People fear truth because it makes them have to work harder. lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is important to understand that the way history was written in ancient times differs to how it is written today.
Although there is still bias today of course.
That said, the crucial facts tend to me real when it comes to the history of nations ( there are always dissenting voices and the criteria of embarrassment for example) and not so much when it comes to MA myths/legends that were NOT meant to be historical truths from the very beginning.

[madhusudan]

I've enjoyed reading some of the recent posts in this thread and agree with the general consensus. Allegory is symbolic. It is very dense to take it literally. Many (most?) people are stuck in linear, left-brain, physical-only, literal thinking and have trouble discerning the intended meaning of ancient stories, myths and legends. Once you release that tight grip, the meaning is often clear.