Why are you interested in TCMA history?

[r.(shaolin)]

Well said.
r.

Of course History is important and necessary. Here is a Quote from Diodorus of Sicily;

'History offers us a schooling safe from the pitfalls of life through a presentation of events that have proved advantageous in the experience of others'.

A fine way to describe form also. Do you practice form? Do you study the techniques passed down from before? This IS history. ALL traditional Kung fu is history. If you ignore the history, then you ignore the tradition. If you ignore this, you are not studying the Kung fu style you claim to. Sure, you are still studying martial arts, and if your mechanistic mind reduces kung fu entirely to 'martial arts' then that is precisely what you are training. If this is your only interest then that is fine and all success to you, but do not believe that it is you who are seeking kung fu and call the traditionalists pretenders.

Any of the myriad disciplines of Kung fu is an indivisible whole. It comes from a culture not as suited to reductionist thinking as ours, and a time where reducing such a discipline to its constituents was impractical. You may not believe that a whole is more than the sum of its parts. You may think you can exceed Kung fu by isolating the specific techniques that work relative to your specific training method in your limited experience, ignoring all other aspects of the style. But when you do this do not userp the name of 'KungFu'. Even if you can defeat all the kung fu masters of the world with your method, do not be persuaded that you have the real kung fu, because kung fu is irreducible to one quantity to be matched.

If you want to be a good martial artist and take what bits of Kung fu suite you then that is fine but don't think you are the master of kung fu. Similarly if you are the opposite, a traditionalist, do not think because you understand some deeper aspects of Kung fu that makes you a better martial artist than those who don't. It does not.



History is passed down to teach you something. Don't ignore it, or believe it. Try to LEARN something from it. When we say 'this style was created by a woman' what does that teach you? Women cannot match men at strength, a style invented by a woman relies on structure not strength. Its strikes rely on stabbing weak points rather than bludgeoning. Remember this history as you train and you can correct yourself.

[PalmStriker]

I have found in my experience typically the history and culture buffs are into the role playing side to martial arts.

The typical academic/historian isn't into practicing MA at all, may go to the gym for exercise, though, like many who work at desk jobs with Jedi Swords hidden from their co-workers.

[r.(shaolin)]

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I very much like the above post.

Here is a story you might enjoy.

r.
www.shaolinwushu.com

[Vajramusti]

Here is a story you might enjoy.

r.
www.shaolinwushu.com

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I enjoyed the story even though I am an Okie transplant -not a Texan.

[tc101]

Are stories important to training sports/competition martial arts?

Yes all the evidence proves this true.

Stories are how we humans think, how we are wired. To the human brain, imagined experiences are processed the same as real experiences. Stories create genuine emotions, presence (being in an actual situation), and behavioural responses.

It is one way we think. You admit we don't need stories to train or compete in sport.

Physical training teaches us only about 25% of a skill set, strong, emotionally connected narrative does the rest.

You just made this up that does not make it true. It is also inconsistent with your admission that stories not important for sports.

Stories have always been a primal form of teaching, one of man’s most powerful tools especially when teaching and learning life and death skills. Recent research has confirmed this. When individuals are under intense psychological stress, as in a life and death situations and the ‘reptilian coping brain’ kicks in, skills learned only though physical practice and repetition fall to the wayside.

Stories do not teach skills. Skills are the ability to do something and you only get and get better at skills through practice that is practicing doing that something. Can stories teach you to juggle or make you better at juggling? Do you think stories can only teach your so called life and death skills but not regular skills? Why would that be?

The other thing is there is no such thing as life and death skills. There are only skills that you find yourself needing to use in a life threatening situation but these skills are just fighting skills. Striking, dealing with punches, being able to escape the mount, being able to deal with a shoot, being able to fill in the blank these are not things that only come into play when your are fighting with your life but whenever you fight.

Physical skills do not fall by the wayside when faced with a life threatening situation. Where do you get this idea? As ex military I can tell you that is not true.

Here's the thing if you do not have physical skills you have nothing and if you are ever in a life threatening situation and I have been there a few times I can tell you that you won't remember or access stories. Your reptilian brain lol does not think in stories reptiles aren't literary. Things happen incredibly fast. If it is not engrained habit you will not have when you need it.

Stories passed on from one fireman to another, one SWAT team member to an other, one warrior to another, have saved many a life, and yes the story has to be a good one.

I am a LEO. These so called stories you mention involve situational experience in real life. Those are not stories in the sense we are talking about the stories in Chinese martial art.

[r.(shaolin)]

Yes all the evidence proves this true. . .
It is one way we think. You admit we don't need stories to train or compete in sport.
You just made this up that does not make it true. . . . It is also inconsistent with your admission that stories not important for sports.
Stories do not teach skills. Skills are the ability to do something and you only get and get better at skills through practice that is practicing doing that something. .

Are stories important to training sports/competition martial arts? I would say no, although IMO discounting ‘lineage stories’ diminishes even 'sport martial arts' greatly.

I would agree that actual "practicing doing that something" is very important and that mental simulation is not as good as actually doing something, but it is the next best thing, and very useful in teaching 'life or death' skills because putting one self into a life threatening situation is generally not practical.
In checking my source I did have the percentage wrong. "Overall mental practice alone produced about two thirds of the benefits of actual physical practice." I'm quoting from Chip Heath's book, "Made to Stick". He made that claim in reference to a review of thirty-five studies featuring 3,214 participants. Chip is a professor of organizational behaviour in the Graduate School of Business at Stanford University. (Heath Chip. 2007. Made to Stick, New York: Random House, pg. 204-237)

r.

[Jimbo]

I would agree that actual "practicing doing that something" is very important and that mental simulation is not as good as actually doing something, but it is the next best thing, and very useful in teaching 'life or death' skills because putting one self into a life threatening situation is generally not practical.
In checking my source I did have the percentage wrong. "Overall mental practice alone produced about two thirds of the benefits of actual physical practice." I'm quoting from Chip Heath's book, "Made to Stick". He made that claim in reference to a review of thirty-five studies featuring 3,214 participants. Chip is a professor of organizational behaviour in the Graduate School of Business at Stanford University. (Heath Chip. 2007. Made to Stick, New York: Random House, pg. 204-237)

r.

I agree that the mental aspect is a very important part of practicing any skill. One really cannot separate the mental from the physical. Even though if and when it comes time to act in an actual situation, instinct/training takes over, and in that case 'over-thinking' becomes a detriment.

However, I personally see no value in clearly fictitious, fanciful accounts, such as stories of masters with superhuman powers being passed off as true history. If taken as truth, these types of "historical accounts" can/will lead to delusional thinking. I'm not talking about some stories that might have been allegories, but stories that were manufactured at some point to glorify certain styles, lineages or individuals.

[r.(shaolin)]

Physical skills do not fall by the wayside when faced with a life threatening situation. Where do you get this idea? As ex military I can tell you that is not true.

I would agree that an expert would be much more capable, but what we are taking about, at least that's what I am talking about, is ‘getting there’ and developing skills and the role of ‘story’ in training, specifically training for deadly encounters.

You might want to check out, Sources of Power: How People Make Decisions, published by The MIT Press written by Gary Klein, a research psychologist who has done pioneering work in the field of ‘naturalistic decision making’ (NDM). Basically NDM is a study into how people make decisions in high-pressure, high-stakes environments. Klein says that, in the environments he studies, stories are told and retold because they contain wisdom. Stories are effective teaching tools. Note that some of the first funding into NDM research came from the U.S. Army and Navy. As I said earlier, its good stories, a bad story can get you killed, a good story can save your life or someone else's life.

Do people lose physical skill when under extreme stress? Yes they do, even experts do. That is well documented. (see article by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman and Bruce Siddle and in the Encyclopedia of Violence, Peace and Conflict published by Academic Press; October 10, 2008).

r.

[tc101]

I would agree that an expert would be much more capable, but what we are taking about, at least that's what I am talking about, is ‘getting there’ and developing skills and the role of ‘story’ in training, specifically training for deadly encounters.

You might want to check out, Sources of Power: How People Make Decisions, published by The MIT Press written by Gary Klein, a research psychologist who has done pioneering work in the field of ‘naturalistic decision making’ (NDM). Basically NDM is a study into how people make decisions in high-pressure, high-stakes environments. Klein says that, in the environments he studies, stories are told and retold because they contain wisdom. Stories are effective teaching tools. Note that some of the first funding into NDM research came from the U.S. Army and Navy. As I said earlier, its good stories, a bad story can get you killed, a good story can save your life or someone else's life.

Do people losing physical skill when under extreme stress? Yes they do, even experts do. That is well documented. (see article by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman and Bruce Siddle and in the Encyclopedia of Violence, Peace and Conflict published by Academic Press; October 10, 2008).

r.

I do not know where this idea of training that Chinese martial artists are training for deadly encounters comes from or about how you think stories and likely false or greatly embellished stories at that help you deal with them.

I have been making high pressure high stakes decisions my whole life since my only two occupations was military and law enforcement. Experience is shared and is useful but that doesn't give you skills. Skills come through practice.

Yes fine motor skills go under stress and even gross motor skills can can not will but can be effected by extreme stress but so what? I don't have any idea what your point is. If you have to fight you need skills. If you lose them then you lose. Some story isn't going to save your a$$.

[Faux Newbie]

Stories motivate action and inspire practice. Modern military training banks on this practice. It holds a higher place for the rank and file than training, and it is the basis for esprit de corps. That said, in a fight, it does not replace training, but at the front end, it inspires many to train hard. And much of it, in the military as in kung fu, is not valid history.

[r.(shaolin)]

Stories motivate action and inspire practice. Modern military training banks on this practice. It holds a higher place for the rank and file than training, and it is the basis for esprit de corps. That said, in a fight, it does not replace training, ... .

Agreed. I'm not advocating that physical training is not important or needed, it is. However, mental practice also has powerful potential in developing skills, what stories do is emotionally connect information to the individual, and can improve and develop skills, and to physiologically enable (see) the ability to kill.
In addition when it comes to combat, as well as in self-defence, rapid 'situational awareness', 'sense making', and 'decision making' can be, and often are, negatively effected when one is in a high-pressure, high-stakes environment. These are important skills for both combat and self-defence and can spell success or failure in any action taken or not taken. 'Effective stories,' have been shown to be very helpful in making these combat and self-defence skills operative in high-pressure environments.

r.

[Rover]

There is two types of m.a. stories : the ones about creation of the systems,and the ones about famous practicioners of the systems.
I belive that creation ones are always overstated fairy tales made up for pumping the of a system up.Famuos practicioners about ones are more reliable and not so old as stories of m.a. system creations.

[SPJ]

History is used as a reference.

That is what it is or was.

[Pipefighter]

Remember this history as you train and you can correct yourself.

I wonder if that is a good outlook for training method. Sometimes i spar and think i am using good posture, then find out i am not protecting my head as well as i thought. Is it possible to use the historical record for a legitimate self evaluation?

I personally enjoy hearing where a move that i am learning came from, how it was developed, by who if that story is known. If i show someone else that move i will tell them the story, including how i learned it.
But in social context i don't like to talk with other westerners about TCMA history, what very little i know, because virtually every discussion becomes a comparison of who knows more and who heard the "true version" of that history, and suddenly you have two white boys with quiet feelings of contention over issues that neither really know, and shouldn't have a personal stake in.

If learning TCMA history is important to pass on, maybe it should come with a disclaimer??

[Pipefighter]

Stories motivate action and inspire practice. Modern military training banks on this practice. It holds a higher place for the rank and file than training, and it is the basis for esprit de corps. That said, in a fight, it does not replace training, but at the front end, it inspires many to train hard. And much of it, in the military as in kung fu, is not valid history.

Absolutely true. but is that a good thing?
Allegedly, the Romans were a small farming community who created their own mythological history of being the descendants of the might Romulus. Gradually they started taking over more land because they felt it was their destiny.
The USA had a destiny to manifest at one point too, and so did the Germans, etc...
I believed the Pilgrims were our forefathers until i got to college
Does holding a mythology/"history" near and dear benefit training or society? I wonder which happens more- a legitimate technique is passed on because of an ancient history, or a concept is lost because the ancient history fills the place where a gentle jab to the nose would have been a more valid lesson?