Are "Grandmasters" helping or hurting the progress of kung fu?

[Dale Dugas]

Enlightened Bruce is dead, buried and rotten. His kung fu sucked. period.

Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung and Chuck Norris outlive him and outshine him.

Stop talking like a f ucking fortune cookie and train more.

[Dragonzbane76]

A good boxer would beat the hell out of a 'mma' fighter, as would a good thai boxer, and western wrestler.

lol well the early 90's called. I think that it's been proven over and over about the absurdity of this statement, unless you are talking about the rule sets and fighting within them.

[Dale Dugas]

Utter and complete rubbish that people are wanting to listne to ANYONE who calls themselves Master, Grandmaster, Sigung, Sijo.

You do not call yourself anything but your name.

Most of these toolbags could not fight their way out of a paper bag.

Enough said.

[Vicius]

Smoking Gun have some good points.

Well gong fu, as we know them, have nothing to do with war, tha's for sure, in war you use primarily weapons, and the movements permited in a war fighting are not so wide like in gong fu, -just guessing, I'm not an historiar- so maybe the most simple and direct techniques could have some use in war, I mean ancient kind of war. So if gung fu have nothing to do with war, why we should measure it with a chinese state incapable of wining a war? Thats a mather of armies, governments and the population.

I think gung fu have a bunch of crap in it, like any art that have passed large social and political periods of peace, and was combined with religious credences, and philosophical issues... ohhh and chinese opera, I almost forgot the chinese opera. So chinese -and I'm going to say it this way- fighting arts, where not destroyed, it´s like one boxer that is defeated by another boxer, you can't say that box was destroyed, just one fighter was better than the other, better trained, more strong, that have specialiced his techniques and can use them with success.

I, sincerily, don't give a **** if anyone think's that chinese fighting arts are good or bad, or if everybody quits or starts to practice Chinese fighting styles tomorrow, I'm not going to earn more money for that; but I like the talk . And I wish Smoking Gun could talk more about this following:

Most MMA fights are dreadful, and the basic combat skills are diminutive and non existent.

because it looks interesting. Maybe another thread or PM

[Faux Newbie]

Korean Civil War was not entirely a loss for the Chinese armies. The beginning of every new dynasty, often some successful war involved. Chinese fought as Manchu bannermen, fought in the Mongol fighting forces, fought against Japan in China. Lots of warfare. Like every civilization, some wins, some losses. And some combat training.

[Smoking Gun]

Korean Civil War was not entirely a loss for the Chinese armies. The beginning of every new dynasty, often some successful war involved. Chinese fought as Manchu bannermen, fought in the Mongol fighting forces, fought against Japan in China. Lots of warfare. Like every civilization, some wins, some losses. And some combat training.

Sigh.. I'm not going to answer your contested claims on Chinese democracy, medical cannibalism, subjugation my nomadic Tibetan tribes..but I will say you are idiot for denying the extent of the Mongol subjugation/genocide of the Han Chinese. No other culture was beaten into complete submission/humiliation than like the Chinese by the Mongols. No other culture has gone through more dynastic change/usurpation of power, along with democide, than the Chinese. Read about the Chinese generals who made meat sauces from human blood (to be consumed) then smeared over war drums during the zhou dynasty. The modern totalitarian state originated in China (one of the pearls of asian civilisation), the CCP is nothing other than a modern re-manifestation of the ancient Chinese political system.

There was no mass Chinese resistance to the Japanese during ww2, only a spattering of resistance by chinese communists .. over 20 million Chinese were murdered by fanatical 'bushido' japs who took delight in bayonetting babies and then toasting them, gang raping women like a pack of rapid dogs, and gorging women with bayonets up their uteruses like out of a disgusting horror movie. The 'heroic' chinese resistance is about as real as the Long march - a chinese communist myth to try and make chinese culture sound brutal and heroic. Does that smash your martial arts pipe dream of a vicious warrior culture to pieces?

Bruce Lee was a 'master' for telling people to practice styles/techniques with real application and aggression. The thing he taught is to practice each and every technique in training with full force and power, which is counter-logic to 'gong fu' - a set of fluffy calisthenic 'like' movements performed in silk pyjamas.

The UFC doesn't allow boxer/thai boxers into the tournament because they know that they would knock the living hell out of them in two minutes. MMa fighters hit with half the power of boxers/kickboxers. It's about as intimidating as a group of white belts with tattooed pit bulls brawling.

You can get your asian values and **** off! Go and work for the confucius institute

[lkfmdc]

The UFC doesn't allow boxer/thai boxers into the tournament

Is that why they have had Cro Cop, Patrick Barry, Antoni Hardonk, Bas Rutten, Alistair Overeem, etc etc etc in the UFC

[Smoking Gun]

Is that why they have had Cro Cop, Patrick Barry, Antoni Hardonk, Bas Rutten, Alistair Overeem, etc etc etc in the UFC

there is nothing to fear in a mma fighter except being taken to the ground, and even there they are lacklustre.

UFC is extremely corrupt, with an entrenched culture of match fixing and steroids.

[Smoking Gun]

Is that why they have had Cro Cop, Patrick Barry, Antoni Hardonk, Bas Rutten, Alistair Overeem, etc etc etc in the UFC

Not one single person you mentioned is a professional boxer or thai boxer. Just Dutch mma 'kick boxer' fighters, with glaring connections to the corrupt/criminal dutch martial arts world.

[Dale Dugas]

More verbal diarrhea from net ghosts.

[Faux Newbie]

Sigh.. I'm not going to answer your contested claims on Chinese democracy, medical cannibalism, subjugation my nomadic Tibetan tribes..but I will say you are idiot for denying the extent of the Mongol subjugation/genocide of the Han Chinese. No other culture was beaten into complete submission/humiliation than like the Chinese by the Mongols. No other culture has gone through more dynastic change/usurpation of power, along with democide, than the Chinese. Read about the Chinese generals who made meat sauces from human blood (to be consumed) then smeared over war drums during the zhou dynasty. The modern totalitarian state originated in China (one of the pearls of asian civilisation), the CCP is nothing other than a modern re-manifestation of the ancient Chinese political system.

There was no mass Chinese resistance to the Japanese during ww2, only a spattering of resistance by chinese communists .. over 20 million Chinese were murdered by fanatical 'bushido' japs who took delight in bayonetting babies and then toasting them, gang raping women like a pack of rapid dogs, and gorging women with bayonets up their uteruses like out of a disgusting horror movie. The 'heroic' chinese resistance is about as real as the Long march - a chinese communist myth to try and make chinese culture sound brutal and heroic. Does that smash your martial arts pipe dream of a vicious warrior culture to pieces?

Bruce Lee was a 'master' for telling people to practice styles/techniques with real application and aggression. The thing he taught is to practice each and every technique in training with full force and power, which is counter-logic to 'gong fu' - a set of fluffy calisthenic 'like' movements performed in silk pyjamas.

The UFC doesn't allow boxer/thai boxers into the tournament because they know that they would knock the living hell out of them in two minutes. MMa fighters hit with half the power of boxers/kickboxers. It's about as intimidating as a group of white belts with tattooed pit bulls brawling.

You can get your asian values and **** off! Go and work for the confucius institute

Every era in which there was not a dynasty based on one or the other of the Northern nomadic people, the Chinese were actively subjugating the Northern nomadic peoples. And there were more of those eras. This is basic history, just because you don't want it to be that way doesn't change the fact.

Are you saying the Long March didn't happen? Care to cite a source on that?

Also, you might want to keep in mind that a great many Japanese atrocities were in retribution for resistance from the Chinese.

Good luck with your reliance on non peer reviewed histories on the internet to inform yourself.

[Faux Newbie]

Okay, this just hit me.

Did you cite the frikkin Zhou Dynasty to find cruel practices?

Really?

You mean, people in ancient times found inventive ways to be cruel? Thanks for this ground breaking study! Hell, you could have gone much more recently in Eastern or Western societies and found as much.

By the way, where is your evidence that no other people has been subjugated more? Are you counting the carthaginians? Would you say that the continuance of Chinese culture has paid off more for the Chinese, or for the Mongolian people? How about the Manchus, run in to many Manchus lately? Got a lot of Xiongnu friends bragging about their domination of the region?

[Faux Newbie]

And MMA fighters include a great many dedicated individuals who train their skills with thoughtfulness and courage. And some dedicated individuals who are not so thoughtful about their training， but at least have the courage to fight those who do. And, of course, some idiots.

It's very easy to say who you are better than, proving it is the important part.

[Smoking Gun]

Every era in which there was not a dynasty based on one or the other of the Northern nomadic people, the Chinese were actively subjugating the Northern nomadic peoples. And there were more of those eras. This is basic history, just because you don't want it to be that way doesn't change the fact.

Are you saying the Long March didn't happen? Care to cite a source on that?

Also, you might want to keep in mind that a great many Japanese atrocities were in retribution for resistance from the Chinese.

Good luck with your reliance on non peer reviewed histories on the internet to inform yourself.

Yeah I've got a whole library on Chinese civilisation/culture. I buy books from "china books' all the time. I've attended different lectures, listened to many experts.. there was a recent documentary on the historical veracity of the long march. A lot of Western academics are sceptical of the exaggerated claims of the chinese communists, with their filtered, censored, revisionist history of this and other histories.

20 million murdered by Japanese military is no mere retribution but a deliberate out right cleansing/holocaust. Delude yourself son, with your shaolin warrior fantasies, even the British kicked the **** out of the Chinese during the opium wars, whilst the rest of the European countries tore it up during the Qing. The Chinese were defeated. Do I have to post photos of the Chinese being murdered by the fanatical japs? There is a strange twist of historic irony when a small nomadic tibetan culture invades and conquerors a monolithic sized China. China is the size of 1.6 billion, and Tibet 5million. Do your maths son, look at the humiliation and embarrassment of an empire being torn apart by nomadic pastrolists.

There has been a continuous line of cruelty and tyranny running deep in China from the Xia dynasty up until the present day. I can't glean any of the fruits you speak of when you compare it to the ancient european world which did in fact experiment with law, republicanism, assemblies, equlity of sexes, secularism (at certain points). Chinese history is just a continuous line of mad megalomaniacal rulers acting like despots with their enfoffements and prison camps. Why don't you do a search on the Chinese that went around stark naked (because of poverty) up until and during the republican era?

[Faux Newbie]

Yeah I've got a whole library on Chinese civilisation/culture.

And how many of those books are by scholars that are well respected in their field?

I buy books from "china books' all the time.

You have a credit card, congratulations.

I've attended different lectures, listened to many experts..

None of whom you can actually name.

there was a recent documentary on the historical veracity of the long march. A lot of Western academics are sceptical of the exaggerated claims of the chinese communists, with their filtered, censored, revisionist history of this and other histories.

Again, what is the name of this or what experts were used in it? There's not that many China experts whose expertise applies here, if you have such a large library and know so much about it, these names become pretty familiar pretty quickly.

The problem is, there were quite a few survivors who seemed to carry on a consistent story, whether they later were less pleased with the party or not, whether they stayed in China or not, on what occurred on the march. There are apocryphal stories, to be certain, but the idea that the march did not occur, that it did not occur in relation to actions of the Nationalists, is a bit out of the bulk of scholarship on this topic.

20 million murdered by Japanese military is no mere retribution but a deliberate out right cleansing/holocaust.

No, the Japanese wanted Chinese to act as workers, just as they had expected of the Koreans and the Ainu and other Asians they considered their lesser brothers. Unrest in China caused them to seek to root out political enemies, which required ever increasing repression that drove ever greater numbers into opposition, just as would happen in the ROK when they carried on Japanese policies toward dissidents in later years.

Japan needed Chinese workers to work in Manchuria, and the communists endangered that. The Japanese leadership's entire Asian co-prosperity sphere was a necessary condition for competing against the West, Japan could not populate China with Japanese workers, not could it count on Korean workers, as they also were creating unrest in North China and agitating. The repression was not much different that the actions of the ROK later, overreaction to political dissidents that ultimately fed into and benefited those dissidents.

Delude yourself son, with your shaolin warrior fantasies

I was wondering when the ad hominem attack was coming. All talk, no fact, you are.

even the British kicked the **** out of the Chinese during the opium wars, whilst the rest of the European countries tore it up during the Qing.

Both of these were in the Qing, and one was the result of the other. And now they are considered a great power by U.S. experts. So what?

The Chinese were defeated. Do I have to post photos of the Chinese being murdered by the fanatical japs?

I have not disputed that there were defeats in Chinese history. No state has existed as long without also facing defeats. Again, what is your point?

There is a strange twist of historic irony when a small nomadic tibetan culture invades and conquerors a monolithic sized China.

Tibetan? The Tibetans didn't invade and conquer China. Are you talking about the Mongols? Manchu?

China is the size of 1.6 billion, and Tibet 5million. Do your maths son,

Do your geography, Tibet didn't conquer China.

look at the humiliation and embarrassment of an empire being torn apart by nomadic pastrolists.

If you are talking about the Mongols, then we are discussing more than pastoral folk, but military leaders who defeated a lot more leaders than those of China, who had advisors from all cultures, including a number of Chinese advisors who were well respected for the skills by the Khan, and who were a massive cavalry force, just like the Manchu.

In the case of the Manchu, again, they had non-Manchu bannermen from many regions, they made use of cavalry in the North and ground troops and boats to gain access to the South. Hardly simple nomads at that time in history.

From there, the Manchu were acclimated over time by the imperial system.

The Mongols could not hold the territory because the need for the imperial system's bureaucracy meant adoption of Chinese customs, which made it easy for chieftains in the steppes to attack the authority of mongols living as Chinese.

In the periods before and between these periods, the Chinese played nomadic chieftains one against the other and employed their cavalries in their armies.

There has been a continuous line of cruelty and tyranny running deep in China from the Xia dynasty up until the present day.

BS.

I can't glean any of the fruits you speak of when you compare it to the ancient european world which did in fact experiment with law,

I'll just assume you mean rule of law, as in precedent.

republicanism, assemblies, equlity of sexes, secularism (at certain points).

Aside from ascribing a whole mess of stuff to all western powers during those times when it doesn't apply, it is amazing that you break out secularism. I'll assume you count Confucianism as a religion.

And despite all that, 1/3 of the wars in the world at any point in that time were in Europe. This wouldn't end until the U.S. and Russia made Western Europe a nuclear hotspot not to push. Not one day before. Plenty of torture in all that time, plenty of cruel Kings, ending with nationalism and conflict of empires. Equality of the sexes is a joke in almost that entire period. Guillotines. Etc.

Chinese history is just a continuous line of mad megalomaniacal rulers

Bleh. Generalizations. These do not historical analysis make.

Why don't you do a search on the Chinese that went around stark naked (because of poverty) up until and during the republican era?

You seem to be extending your history back to one period, and then applying it retroactively to all periods, including periods in which China's economic status was dominant, including to the Brits.

I am highly amused as you go from "the Chinese are weak and have always been weak" to "their leaders are cruel, and WOMEN'S RIGHTS!" I will give you credit for being a feminist.

After every period in which cavalry from the North took China, the Chinese took total control of those regions again, divided these Northerners, used the ones that were loyal to them as cavalry, and made it harder for such people's to retake China. The Xiongnu's approach for taking China would no longer work by the time of the Mongols, the Mongol approach no longer worked by the time of the Manchu. In each case, a more technological China required a more advanced force to take it, which could be said about a great many places across the world that contributed to global development worldwide in both the East and West.

Your entire premiss is that your society is only good if others are bad. Your society is based on a melange of eastern and western ideas, from China's bureaucracy to Iroquois ideas on democracy and warfare to Indian and Persian math to a huge number of other factors, all of which form the basis for your life, whether you like it or not.

I do support the fact that you are a feminist.

Now again, what were the sources for your info?