The Way Forward

[Minghequan]

There has been a lot of discussion on this the Wing Chun forum that can best be described as unfortunate and I have been one of the biggest contributors to this mess. I've stated elsewhere why I felt the way I did and why I got involved.

But I'm not justifying myself. My behaviour has been questionable and even somewhat childish at times. I fully get this and am remorseful for that aspect of the discussion generally contributing towards lowering the tone.

I have come to realise one or two things during all this.

1/. Not everyone feels as passionately as I do.
2/. Not everyone is honest and up-front when they should be.
3/. A great many hide behind pseudonyms.
4/. A great many have agenda's.
5/. We All have to strive to lift the tone and behaviour exhibited here, myself no less than anyone else!

So I's like to ask you ALL to participate on how this can be achieved? What is the way forward?

As a means of starting discussion, why don't we treat each other as if we were in their school, Guan, Tang, Kwoon, Dojo whatever you want to call it?

What rules of conversation, discussion and engagement or agreeing to disagree could we apply to ourselves here on this forum, the whole forum?

How many of you are really for raising the bar here or am I simply pipe-dreaming?

I often read Gene Ching's posts in the Magazine about Wude, Martial Spirit, Ethics and behaviour and agree with his views whilst shaking my head at my own behaviour often not being aligned to these very same things that at one time or another we all have been exposed to, taught and ought to strive for.

So ... the discussion is open ... does anyone want to contribute?

[tc101]

There has been a lot of discussion on this the Wing Chun forum that can best be described as unfortunate and I have been one of the biggest contributors to this mess. I've stated elsewhere why I felt the way I did and why I got involved.

But I'm not justifying myself. My behaviour has been questionable and even somewhat childish at times. I fully get this and am remorseful for that aspect of the discussion generally contributing towards lowering the tone.

I have come to realise one or two things during all this.

1/. Not everyone feels as passionately as I do.
2/. Not everyone is honest and up-front when they should be.
3/. A great many hide behind pseudonyms.
4/. A great many have agenda's.
5/. We All have to strive to lift the tone and behaviour exhibited here, myself no less than anyone else!

So I's like to ask you ALL to participate on how this can be achieved? What is the way forward?

As a means of starting discussion, why don't we treat each other as if we were in their school, Guan, Tang, Kwoon, Dojo whatever you want to call it?

What rules of conversation, discussion and engagement or agreeing to disagree could we apply to ourselves here on this forum, the whole forum?

How many of you are really for raising the bar here or am I simply pipe-dreaming?

I often read Gene Ching's posts in the Magazine about Wude, Martial Spirit, Ethics and behaviour and agree with his views whilst shaking my head at my own behaviour often not being aligned to these very same things that at one time or another we all have been exposed to, taught and ought to strive for.

So ... the discussion is open ... does anyone want to contribute?

I compliment you for giving this thought. Good for you.

[KPM]

Thank you Ron. Good post and good idea.

I think too often people hide behind a pseudonym and a keyboard and write things that they would never say in a face to face situation. IMHO every discussion here, like you suggest, should be conducted as if we were in someone's school or at least sitting around drinks having a face to face conversation. Sure, there will be some good-natured kidding back and forth, some off-topic meanderings in threads, some skipping around, some disagreements...just like in any normal conversation. But hopefully this would limit some of the more rude, snarky comments that end up with someone p!ssed off and taking a swing at the speaker or at least storming out of the room. When people are looking someone in the eye, they just naturally tend to be a little more polite than they are from behind a keyboard. Everyone should keep that in mind.

And what this forum has lacked is any kind of consistent and serious moderation. No one likes to be censored and no one likes to be the bad guy doing the censoring. But clearly some of the things going on here recently needed someone to step in and exert a little authority. Just like the bartender stepping in and saying "keep it down guys, or I'm going to ask you to leave!"

Personally, I hate pseudonyms and intials. Everyone should be required to provide a name, even if its a fake one. But that's just me.

Everyone should also realize (myself included) that tone and intent can easily be misinterpreted in a forum format. Something that the writer didn't intend to be offensive when he wrote it can be taken that way depending on the context and positioning within the post and the way it is stated. Someone can make what they intended as a general comment, but place it right next to something someone else just wrote and it will look like it was directed at that person. So just being thoughtful and careful with what is written rather than just replying with "stream of thought" can go a long ways towards avoiding unnecessary conflict.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The WC forum is kind of a running joke, I am sorry to say.
The pointless bickering and arguments about the most insignificant of crap is truly mind boggling.
Some WC people are under the impression that their system is SO MUCH better/different than any other, they are closed minded and arrogant AND ignorant about the reality of MA.
This whole forum gets into arguments about things that anywhere else in any other circumstances, would be the biggest joke ever.
I think you guys just need to grow up, stop trying to be such prima donas and simple realize that it is OK to be different, Its OK to have different ways of doing WC and that there is NO "real" WC.
WC is about fighting, every MA is about fighting regardless of the extra baggage anyone tries to tatted to it ( for whatever reason).
The first step in you guys growing up is to realize THAT.
The next step is to stop listening and giving and sort of credibility to those that can NOT ( or their students can not) "practice what they preach", ie:
See it taught, see it fought.
If someone comes up with some "theory" and they or their students CAN'T demonstrate for real, simply realize that what can't be fought with deserves as little consideration as possible.

It also wouldn't hurt you WC guys to support your fellow WC peeps that are ACTUALLY FIGHTING with WC.

Of course, if you feel that WC is NOT a fighting art, that it was NOT developed to fight with and that fighting is NOT the purpose of a system who's principles and techniques are about hitting and hurting other people, well then...

Forget all I just wrote and go back to your La-La land.

WC is no more and no less than any other MA, get over yourselves and grow up ( and grow a pair while you are at it).

[Frost]

It also wouldn't hurt you WC guys to support your fellow WC peeps that are ACTUALLY FIGHTING with WC.

But they are not fighting with correct wing chun principles.....of course those said correct principles can only be talked about and demonstrated in chi sau and static applications not in actual fights against trained opponents...but still they are not using wing chun principles i tell you!

and so the circle jerk goes on and on

[KPM]

See, here is part of the problem. Ron starts a thread with a sincere and honest intent and question. And then people come along with sole purpose of sabotaging it and taking it off-topic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

See, here is part of the problem. Ron starts a thread with a sincere and honest intent and question. And then people come along with sole purpose of sabotaging it and taking it off-topic.

This is an example of the problems in the WC forum.
People express what those problems are and get "sabotaging and off -topic" as a reply.
Realize this:
While there is some drama and some disagreement in other forums, it never even gets close to the "drama queen" battles that happen here.
Maybe you WC guys should trade in the sand in your vagina for a pair of balls.
That may help.

You complain that it is the lack of moderation on this forum but the reality is this:
Everyone else sees you guys as the armchair warriors and drama queens that you are.

You guys are lucky than ANYONE wants to moderate this desolate waste of cyber space that is populated by a bunch of whiny pussies.

[pazman]

Some WC people are under the impression that their system is SO MUCH better/different than any other, they are closed minded and arrogant AND ignorant about the reality of MA.

This.

I can read and enjoy almost any thread on this forum, save for any in the wing chun forum. I don't know if its a few people ruining it for everyone else, but I get the same impression from the forums that I get in real life from wing chun people. Lot's of talk and pontification but no action on the lei tai.

[deejaye72]

The WC forum is kind of a running joke, I am sorry to say.
The pointless bickering and arguments about the most insignificant of crap is truly mind boggling.
Some WC people are under the impression that their system is SO MUCH better/different than any other, they are closed minded and arrogant AND ignorant about the reality of MA.
This whole forum gets into arguments about things that anywhere else in any other circumstances, would be the biggest joke ever.
I think you guys just need to grow up, stop trying to be such prima donas and simple realize that it is OK to be different, Its OK to have different ways of doing WC and that there is NO "real" WC.
WC is about fighting, every MA is about fighting regardless of the extra baggage anyone tries to tatted to it ( for whatever reason).
The first step in you guys growing up is to realize THAT.
The next step is to stop listening and giving and sort of credibility to those that can NOT ( or their students can not) "practice what they preach", ie:
See it taught, see it fought.
If someone comes up with some "theory" and they or their students CAN'T demonstrate for real, simply realize that what can't be fought with deserves as little consideration as possible.

It also wouldn't hurt you WC guys to support your fellow WC peeps that are ACTUALLY FIGHTING with WC.

Of course, if you feel that WC is NOT a fighting art, that it was NOT developed to fight with and that fighting is NOT the purpose of a system who's principles and techniques are about hitting and hurting other people, well then...

Forget all I just wrote and go back to your La-La land.

WC is no more and no less than any other MA, get over yourselves and grow up ( and grow a pair while you are at it).

great post! amen brother!

[KPM]

The WC forum is kind of a running joke, I am sorry to say.
The pointless bickering and arguments about the most insignificant of crap is truly mind boggling.
).

I said before that I don't normally go to any of the other forums here at KFO. But I decided to check them out today and went to the general "Kung Fu Forum." Lo and behold, this is the very first thread I see:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...defense-of-gus

So obviously the Wing Chun Forum isn't the only forum with issues. Just thought this was a valuable data point on this thread, since so many non-Wing Chun guys felt the need to jump in and give us advice.

[tc101]

I said before that I don't normally go to any of the other forums here at KFO. But I decided to check them out today and went to the general "Kung Fu Forum." Lo and behold, this is the very first thread I see:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...defense-of-gus

So obviously the Wing Chun Forum isn't the only forum with issues. Just thought this was a valuable data point on this thread, since so many non-Wing Chun guys felt the need to jump in and give us advice.

Gus could have been a wing chun teacher it s the same every where. The only issue is guys who practice some Chinese martial art who never really spar but think they can fight or know about application. There is nothing wrong with doing martial art for reasons other than fighting I mean there are cardio kick boxing and Title type boxing gyms for fitness.

[Frost]

I said before that I don't normally go to any of the other forums here at KFO. But I decided to check them out today and went to the general "Kung Fu Forum." Lo and behold, this is the very first thread I see:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...defense-of-gus

So obviously the Wing Chun Forum isn't the only forum with issues. Just thought this was a valuable data point on this thread, since so many non-Wing Chun guys felt the need to jump in and give us advice.

All forums have debates and issues, that particular debate you are talking about goes back to 2003 on here and is a beef between some training brothers But its probably the only thread anywhere else at the moment on this entire forum which has anything like the level of rubbish this wing chun forum has on a daily basis, the other top threads on the main forum are how to counter your opponents counter, a thread about bruce lee, a plea on how kung fu should be taught, a thread asking about golden bell training and so on, and at least in the Gus thread he actually stepped up and fought to back his point up, if only henrick et all would do the same
looking at the other foums the mantis forum here for example there are a couple of historical doc threads and that’s it, southern forum one about Gus, one about interesting articles and some technical questions being asked only in the wing chun forum is this stuff going on over and over , which is why non wing chun guys pop over, by and large the other forums are boring and no one can believe stuff like this actually goes on in so called fighting arts
I mean take that thread about Gus and black taoist you are so happy to draw comparisons about, at least they both stepped up and fought to settle their differences, actually fought with hard contact the closest the wing chun forum has come to this is when kevin did chi sao touchy feely stuff and got owned

[FongSung]

Thank you Ron. Good post and good idea.

I think too often people hide behind a pseudonym and a keyboard and write things that they would never say in a face to face situation. IMHO every discussion here, like you suggest, should be conducted as if we were in someone's school or at least sitting around drinks having a face to face conversation.

This is exactly how the old timers do it, like I was saying in another thread, face to face .... wanna talk can no problem but then its ...ok show, lets touch hands lah. If they cannot show or refuse to touch hands (which many do) then they have to shut up.

WC is very simple but abstract. ..no need to talk so much.... practice, touch hands, share and discuss then like all fighting arts you will slowly master it.

The problem in tcma is finding people to touch hands with who have no ego and not embarrassed to so called lose or be hit. Discussing all will do lol. I find its mainly the old timers who are willing to touch hands which because they have actually used it in real situations. All the old timers I have met in SEA and China talk about their fights not about how their chi can flow and how to do tan properly etc.