The Way Forward

[Minghequan]

Obviously they don't. And the reactions are so extreme, it's actually kinda funny. But to get back to your OP, the only way forward is to consistently take the high road. We need to be respectful of each other ...in spite of the fact that we will often disagree. And when someone posts something that is really beyond the pale, we need to resist the urge to respond in kind or to engage in personal attacks. Instead, the rest of us need to come together out of a sense of fair play and call foul.

That's how it's done guys. Ignore the provocateurs and trolls. And if they persist, stand together and call foul. Can you do that?

I agree totally! Thank you!

When anyone posts something that reads like this, we all ought to call foul. Crude, hateful and sexist language like that does not persuade anybody of anything. It is just an attempt to elicit an equally over the top response. Too bad too, because SR actually had a legit point to make. But with that kind of language any point goes out the window.

So what do you say SR? Are you willing to make your points with some basic modicum of civility? If so you are welcome. If not, you really should hold back from hitting the "submit reply" button.

I agree again.

So guys can we do this the right way???

The only way forward is to consistently take the high road.

We need to be respectful of each other ...in spite of the fact that we will often disagree.

Are you guys willing to let go of your ego's, your stylistics bias and just try to work on what could be a real turning point for this entire forum?

If enough of us truly apply ourselves then the "Way Forward" will come to fruition and this forum may be a nicer place where people actually discuss the Martial Arts (it's original purpose!).

[Wayfaring]

So guys can we do this the right way???

Thanks for standing up as an agent of change. Respect.

From my perspective this forum always has issues with these topics:

1) My wing chun is older / better / more original than your wing chun
2) I can fight with wing chun
3) My chi sau practice teaches me to fight

Whenever topics float towards either of those 3 items, things seem to turn into a sh1t storm. What this shows me is that for the vast majority of WCK practitioners, they have a lot of illusion and drama surrounding their own self image regarding those topics. The inauthenticity surrounding those topics to me seems higher than the inauthenticity I perceive surrounding discussing other topics.

So I've been real rational and all defining the problem - now I'm going to throw down a challenge. If you post on this forum and get all heated over these topics, you have DRAMA in your life surrounding them and not REALITY. It is your own self image that is the problem, and no amount of "not bickering" is going to solve that. The only thing that will is you starting to become authentic and truthful regarding this drama.

My answers:

1. I have no idea really but stories are cool and can help me connect with the art
2. Depends on who I'm fighting
3. No. But neither does jumping rope and I like that too to help train for fighting because it helps my footwork.

[KPM]

Keith, from what I've seen, you usually try to stand up and speak out when you see someone being treated unfairly on this forum ...even when you don't necessarily agree with them. I admire that. On the other hand, you have to hold your temper if you want to elevate the quality of this discussion. Check out the quote below. You totally got sucked into a pointless fight. Don't take the bait. You don't need to.We all read that post. Just ignore the rude and trollish comments, or at least respond with dignity! We will back you.

Thank you Steve. Point taken. I guess Ron and I ARE a lot alike! We're both crazy and we both get a little overly passionate at times. No offense Ron! But Steve you give good advice that I will try and follow from here on out. Thanks again!

[KPM]

This is an open forum.

Some people who don't do WC come in and are rather, er, surprised by the antics of us all here.

I for one don't mind their suggestions and sometimes their input is excellent. Sanjuro and Knifefighter are/were two good examples.

Not much point wishing WC people would cross train or fight with other stylists when you're not even going to let them on the forum.

I gave up expecting sensible conversation and useful input here a long time ago (though occasionally I'm pleasantly surprised) and usually just come here for amusement.

It's just a forum. Not the friggin' UN.

Yeah, you're right. Its just a forum. My mistake all along has been that I look upon the forum as a "virtual teahouse" so to speak. A place where some guys with the same interests gather to talk about what they do, shoot the sh!t and compare notes. Like in my original description on this thread....sitting around at a table at the local pub having a few drinks with friends and talking about Wing Chun. I thought the cool thing about it was I could sit around the table with a guy from Australia, another from Hong Kong, and another from Hungary all at the same time. And people interacting that way are going to be friendly but polite when they are talking to you face to face. They aren't going to storm into the group calling people names and upsetting the table without someone calling them on it, and calling them on it rather loudly! A non-Wing Chun guy is welcome at the table, but if he starts spouting anti-Wing Chun stuff the people around the table are going to speak up! Aren't they?

But that was my mistake. Obviously no one else here sees it that way. This is just a random forum that people come to for amusement and to slander others. So be it. From now on I have no friends and no buddies here. I will come here just for amusement and for the occasional exchange of information. That's it.

You want a drama queen analogy? In the past I have been Captain Kirk.....passionate, hoping to help and direct others, reactive, and a little loud. From now on I will be Spock....cool, calculating, rational, and dispassionate.

[deejaye72]

The WC forum is kind of a running joke, I am sorry to say.
The pointless bickering and arguments about the most insignificant of crap is truly mind boggling.
Some WC people are under the impression that their system is SO MUCH better/different than any other, they are closed minded and arrogant AND ignorant about the reality of MA.
This whole forum gets into arguments about things that anywhere else in any other circumstances, would be the biggest joke ever.
I think you guys just need to grow up, stop trying to be such prima donas and simple realize that it is OK to be different, Its OK to have different ways of doing WC and that there is NO "real" WC.
WC is about fighting, every MA is about fighting regardless of the extra baggage anyone tries to tatted to it ( for whatever reason).
The first step in you guys growing up is to realize THAT.
The next step is to stop listening and giving and sort of credibility to those that can NOT ( or their students can not) "practice what they preach", ie:
See it taught, see it fought.
If someone comes up with some "theory" and they or their students CAN'T demonstrate for real, simply realize that what can't be fought with deserves as little consideration as possible.

It also wouldn't hurt you WC guys to support your fellow WC peeps that are ACTUALLY FIGHTING with WC.

Of course, if you feel that WC is NOT a fighting art, that it was NOT developed to fight with and that fighting is NOT the purpose of a system who's principles and techniques are about hitting and hurting other people, well then...

Forget all I just wrote and go back to your La-La land.

WC is no more and no less than any other MA, get over yourselves and grow up ( and grow a pair while you are at it).

great post! amen brother!

[Vajramusti]

1. this is just a forum where all kinds of people come and go. Not the end of the world if the forum disappears.
Lots of highly skilled wing chun people I know are not on the forum.
2. I stay- just to nibble at the edges and perhaps to respond to some things that I may care about,
3. Example- I have not argued with Robert Chu for a long time. But he often has opinions that are different from mine.
Two recent expressions- a. he is wrong on Ho Kam Ming's knowledge of the kwan.I have seen HKM kwan work and bjd work b. what went into Ip man's
knowledge ( the Leung Bik issue). I do not regard him or Hendrik or Sergio as historians of all of wing chun.
4. aspects of wing chun could be adapted for sport- but traditional Ip Man wing chun was not and is not a sport.
Not all of Ip man's students were equally exposed to his direct teaching.
Extensive chain store wing chun and video watching has ruined much of the art There are still some very good people doing the art
5..Wing chun is not a collection of techniques though personal and situational techniques can emerge with skill development.
6 we no longer need insights from crane and snake to develop good wing chun . The key is getting started with a good teacher
and practicing regularly and correctly and trying out things without breaking the law.
7 the wing chun tool box is extensive and stands a good chance in dealing with athleticism or the decline of it.
8 any one can have opinions and internet people usually do. One's own development is the key. Wing chun is not the only way to fight.
Good versions of other arts could be better than bad wing chun. Discussing thing in civil fashion can improve dialogue,

[Grumblegeezer]

Thanks for standing up as an agent of change. Respect.

From my perspective this forum always has issues with these topics:

1) My wing chun is older / better / more original than your wing chun
2) I can fight with wing chun
3) My chi sau practice teaches me to fight



My answers:

1. I have no idea really but stories are cool and can help me connect with the art
2. Depends on who I'm fighting
3. No. But neither does jumping rope and I like that too to help train for fighting because it helps my footwork.

These are my answers too. But I'm interested in other points of view as well. I love to hear from both the hyper traditionalists and the progressive pro fighting/sparring/"pressure testing" faction. I believe we are all Wing Chun. I do my WC and I might not like what somebody else does. I'll disagree with them and tell them why. But I'm still glad they post. I'm here to share, learn, ...even to rant sometimes. But not to be a troll.

Those of you who agree, let's take back this forum. It'll be tough but it's possible. We must all practice ...."anti-trolling"!!!!

[KPM]

Those of you who agree, let's take back this forum. It'll be tough but it's possible. We must all practice ...."anti-trolling"!!!!

Take it back from what? I've been fighting this battle for nearly a year now, trying to get people to be nicer and more appropriate in their postings. No one listened to me or supported me. You won't get much agreement because people here do NOT back each other up. Like I said, I was very obviously wrong to think of this forum as some kind of community. It is definitely not. It is just a forum. It is an open forum where it is Ok for people to hide behind keyboards and fake names and say anything they want to say. It is an open forum where it is Ok to be just as rude and inappropriate as you want and say things to people that you would never say in a face to face situation. It is just an open forum where anyone is welcome to post and slander others with names and accusations without providing any explanation or evidence.

I was very obviously wrong to think I could speak up on behalf of regular posters here with some kind of common opinion or voice. It has become VERY obvious that I cannot count on anyone here to back me up or support me on any consistent basis. It has become very clear that I CAN expect that anyone I interact with here is very capable of turning on me in the very next post.

This is an open forum, not a community. There are no friends here. There is no one to count on here. There are no rules here. I will no longer come to anyone else's defense when I see something that seems unfair or false. That has only gotten me into trouble. I no longer care, since it is evident that no one else here does. I am done.

I will still come around for "amusement" as anerlich puts it. Maybe occasionally there will be some good information to pick up. But that is becoming a more and more infrequent occasion as the people that may have valuable things to say are chased away.

So, "grumblegeezer" I may have agreed with you 2 days ago. But its too little too late as far as I'm concerned. I'm done.

That's it. Spock mode....engaged. Carry on.

[Frost]

Take it back from what? I've been fighting this battle for nearly a year now, trying to get people to be nicer and more appropriate in their postings. No one listened to me or supported me. You won't get much agreement because people here do NOT back each other up. Like I said, I was very obviously wrong to think of this forum as some kind of community. It is definitely not. It is just a forum. It is an open forum where it is Ok for people to hide behind keyboards and fake names and say anything they want to say. It is an open forum where it is Ok to be just as rude and inappropriate as you want and say things to people that you would never say in a face to face situation. It is just an open forum where anyone is welcome to post and slander others with names and accusations without providing any explanation or evidence.

I was very obviously wrong to think I could speak up on behalf of regular posters here with some kind of common opinion or voice. It has become VERY obvious that I cannot count on anyone here to back me up or support me on any consistent basis. It has become very clear that I CAN expect that anyone I interact with here is very capable of turning on me in the very next post.

This is an open forum, not a community. There are no friends here. There is no one to count on here. There are no rules here. I will no longer come to anyone else's defense when I see something that seems unfair or false. That has only gotten me into trouble. I no longer care, since it is evident that no one else here does. I am done.

I will still come around for "amusement" as anerlich puts it. Maybe occasionally there will be some good information to pick up. But that is becoming a more and more infrequent occasion as the people that may have valuable things to say are chased away.

So, "grumblegeezer" I may have agreed with you 2 days ago. But its too little too late as far as I'm concerned. I'm done.

That's it. Spock mode....engaged. Carry on.

get off your high horse YOU are hardly blameless you spent weeks going after Alan for not using proper wing Chun in his guys fights, even going so far as to starting a thread in the main forum hoping others would gang up in him for gods sake so forgive me for not feeling sorry for you...

[Grumblegeezer]

get off your high horse YOU are hardly blameless you spent weeks going after Alan for not using proper wing Chun in his guys fights, even going so far as to starting a thread in the main forum hoping others would gang up in him for gods sake so forgive me for not feeling sorry for you...

In all fairness, While KPM and BPWT did drag on ...and on ...and on over on that other thread re how much classical 'chun was visible in Josh Kaldani's recent fight, they had a legitimate question: Namely can you effectively use WC that "looks like WC" in MMA competition or not.

I didn't take that as a personal attack on Alan Orr. In fact the thread began with a lot of respect. Then like always, it degenerated. People on both sides have a hard time accepting the other guy's right to his own opinion. So what's the big deal? Argument is interesting. All we are asking for is to maintain a civil tone. And that only can be done if you regulars start exercising your collective influence. If you want to clean this place up a bit, you can. Or not. It's your call.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And that was my pint grumble, Keith sees it as personal and I, and many others, don't

Whilst SR made some good points he did, admittedly , come across as a big crass but, hey, so be it.... The
Points he made still stand

My whole point was to BE CRASS and RUDE because that is how this whole forum is !
We have been trying to fix this forum for years, YEARS !
It's basically a waste to time because there is nothing wrong with this form per say, it is the POSTERS that need to get a out of their small, isolated and delusional chi-sao infested world and realize that there is NOTHING special about them or WC, NOTHING at all.
I don't think taking the high road will work because, well lets face it, we are MA and we like to fight.
The main problem here is, as I stated in the beginning, people are spew off their version of reality as the ONLY reality and degrading other peoples AND they have NOTHING to back up their version other than " I say so".
MA are about DOING people. If you wanna make the statement that yours is the real WC, SHOW it don't say it.
If you want to make the statement that WC must be like this and anything else is not WC, then SHOW IT, don't say it.
After you have proven it in the ONLY way ANY MA can ever be proven ( and we ALL know what way that is), then you can sit on your ass and pontificate.
Till then, shut up pr put up and the very least you can do is respect those that ARE putting up.
Until THAT mindset is the MAIN mindset in this forum, it will be the same drama filled joke that it has been for the last few years.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is an open forum.

Some people who don't do WC come in and are rather, er, surprised by the antics of us all here.

I for one don't mind their suggestions and sometimes their input is excellent. Sanjuro and Knifefighter are/were two good examples.

Not much point wishing WC people would cross train or fight with other stylists when you're not even going to let them on the forum.

I gave up expecting sensible conversation and useful input here a long time ago (though occasionally I'm pleasantly surprised) and usually just come here for amusement.

It's just a forum. Not the friggin' UN.

As most of you veteran know, I do have a WC background.
I outgrew WC, not because it was a bad system, its a great system ( and I still use quite a few of its principles, principles that all southern hands have BTW), it was just not a perfect fit for me.
I have been here for years, been a moderator for years, been here through ALL the drama, and then some.
In terms of experience with this forum, I have as much, if not more, than the majority of posters here.
Listen to me or not, I don't care THAT much ( I do care or else I wouldn't be posting now) BUT I care enough about WC and some of you guys here that I believe you deserve a better forum then this one is.
The problem is that there is a "enabler mindset" of armchair warrior that is like a virus and it is killing this forum.
The sad part is that you ALL know that.

[tc101]

In all fairness, While KPM and BPWT did drag on ...and on ...and on over on that other thread re how much classical 'chun was visible in Josh Kaldani's recent fight, they had a legitimate question: Namely can you effectively use WC that "looks like WC" in MMA competition or not.

I didn't take that as a personal attack on Alan Orr. In fact the thread began with a lot of respect. Then like always, it degenerated. People on both sides have a hard time accepting the other guy's right to his own opinion. So what's the big deal? Argument is interesting. All we are asking for is to maintain a civil tone. And that only can be done if you regulars start exercising your collective influence. If you want to clean this place up a bit, you can. Or not. It's your call.

The answer to the question of can you use wing chun that "looks like WC" cannot be found on a forum in discussion with people who are not fighting. Do you not see that? How can they possibly know?

You may not have taken it as a personal attack on Alan Orr but I can tell you from being involved with boxing trainers and fighters that fighters and trainers have a different perspective than people who question them and their skills from their arm chairs. Here's the thing this is not an academic question for guys like Orr like it is to most people here. He is out there putting his reputation his livelihood his skill as a trainer on the line. His fighters are doing the same. It is very personal to them. So when they here guys afraid to even put on gloves say things like yeah congrats on winning but that's really not good wing chun since you are not doing it the way I think it should be done and I think you should do this and that instead you might see why they would not take kindly to it and respect those opinions.

[Vajramusti]

As most of you veteran know, I do have a WC background.
I outgrew WC, not because it was a bad system, its a great system ( and I still use quite a few of its principles, principles that all southern hands have BTW), it was just not a perfect fit for


((( No problem SR. I am not in your lineage but civil discussion across lineages is more than ok with me))

I have been here for years, been a moderator for years, been here through ALL the drama, and then some.
In terms of experience with this forum, I have as much, if not more, than the majority of posters here.

((True))

Listen to me or not, I don't care THAT much ( I do care or else I wouldn't be posting now) BUT I care enough about WC and some of you guys here that I believe you deserve a better forum then this one is.

((True))


The problem is that there is a "enabler mindset" of armchair warrior that is like a virus and it is killing this forum.
The sad part is that you ALL know that.

((True. Plus the often anonymous self selection of members as experts plus the quick retorts without engaging the brain that is part of the nature of quite a few internet forums. While the volume of "martial talk" is less the moderation there is a damper on egos/))

[KPM]

My whole point was to BE CRASS and RUDE because that is how this whole forum is !
We have been trying to fix this forum for years, YEARS !

This is true. And it is because of people exactly like you who make no effort to be anything but CRASS and RUDE. How will anything ever change?

It's basically a waste to time because there is nothing wrong with this form per say, it is the POSTERS that need to get a out of their small, isolated and delusional chi-sao infested world and realize that there is NOTHING special about them or WC, NOTHING at all.

I don't recall anyone saying WCK is "special". But this is a Wing Chun forum. We talk about Wing Chun here. If you don't like what is said and don't practice Wing Chun and take offense at what people say about their Wing Chun and cannot post without being crass and rude.....then go elsewhere. Simple fix!


If you wanna make the statement that yours is the real WC, SHOW it don't say it.
If you want to make the statement that WC must be like this and anything else is not WC, then SHOW IT, don't say it.
After you have proven it in the ONLY way ANY MA can ever be proven ( and we ALL know what way that is), then you can sit on your ass and pontificate.
Till then, shut up pr put up and the very least you can do is respect those that ARE putting up.

I hate to keep pointing out the obvious, but this is a discussion forum. We are here to discuss. That implies "saying" or writing what we think. Its very difficult to "show" anything in such a format and very few people have video footage to share. Heck, even the people that pontificate about "showing" and "proving" what one can do have never bothered to post video footage. Again....discussion forum......we d...I...s....c....u...s....s things here. If you don't like that, then go elsewhere.


I have been here for years, been a moderator for years, been here through ALL the drama, and then some.
In terms of experience with this forum, I have as much, if not more, than the majority of posters here.

Yes. I know that. And I know that you should know better. You come onto a thread about the "Way Forward" and your response is designed to offend and inflame any WCK people here. Doesn't sound to me like you learned much from your years of moderating and going through all the similar drama.


Listen to me or not, I don't care THAT much ( I do care or else I wouldn't be posting now) BUT I care enough about WC and some of you guys here that I believe you deserve a better forum then this one is.

Which is why you starting out with such an inflammatory post? I don't believe you. I don't care what you think. You owe no one any allegiance here and they owe you none. There are no friends here. This is an open forum where anyone can say anything they like. So don't say you are trying to help when you are one of the main people contributing to the problem.


The problem is that there is a "enabler mindset" of armchair warrior that is like a virus and it is killing this forum.
The sad part is that you ALL know that.

What I know is that this is a discussion forum, this isn't youtube. We come here to discuss. When discussions are not conducted in a civil manner, when people post inflammatory statements, when people won't acknowledge good points that someone else has made, when people feel free to be just as rude and crass and insulting as they like, and when all the people that have good things to say have been chased away by such behavior.....THAT is what kills a forum.