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Thread: On why I think Hendrik is on to something.

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    I do not think of wing chun as an art form like ballet but as a combative art. Boxers do not struggle with relaxation and since I've been in boxing gyms for 20 years I think I'd know if they find lol. As I told you relaxation comes with familiarity.
    How long does that familiarity take tc101? What does familiarity entail tc101; getting the feel and body awareness for each technique? The above may be rhetorical questions but I still legitimately question the motives for your contributions to this forum. I even question why I spend the time to reply to you and run the risk of being drawn into your rhetorical tar pit traps. If you feel boxing provides you with what you need then perhaps you should spend you discursive time elsewhere.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    How long does that familiarity take tc101? What does familiarity entail tc101; getting the feel and body awareness for each technique? The above may be rhetorical questions but I still legitimately question the motives for your contributions to this forum. I even question why I spend the time to reply to you and run the risk of being drawn into your rhetorical tar pit traps. If you feel boxing provides you with what you need then perhaps you should spend you discursive time elsewhere.
    How long does familiarity take? That is individual. Look we see this in all aspects of life. When you first learn to drive you are tense but with practice comes familiarity and that leads to relaxation. So we can relax when we drive but put us on a race track where we are unfamiliar and we naturally get tense. Practice on the track and get used to driving there and you relax. It is the same in the ring. Relaxation comes through familiarity not through meditation lol.

    This is a wing chun forum and I practice wing chun that is my motive for being here. I share my perspective.

    I do not know what you mean by saying if boxing provides me with what I need. Why can't i do both?

    There is a kune kuit from my lineage of wing chun which basically says crazy practices generate more crazy practices. I think it was formed with guys like Hendrik in mind.

  3. #18
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    At no point have I said Hendrik is 'egoless' nor have I condoned his drive for status.
    I never said you did. I thought the thread was about Hendrik, not your own, um, visionary insights.

    As I made clear from the outset, I leave all that baggage to the side and it is somewhat frustrating to read some of the points you make in your reply. The part of your post I cite above says to me that you have not read my opening post in full and / or have failed to understand what I wrote. To quote myself;
    "To quote myself:"? JMFC. You, my friend, need to get over yourself.

    I read your post more than once. IMO any communication problem here is with the writer, not the reader. The part of your post I cite above says to me, "I think I am really really smart and you should hang on my every word but you don't and it's SO UNFAIR ".
    Last edited by anerlich; 06-02-2014 at 06:02 AM.
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  4. #19


    I'll only respond to genuine questions and comments that take this thread forwards. I am not bothered if they are not forthcoming and people can judge for themselves what I have said and perhaps even google the terms that I have used, if they are unknown to you.

  5. #20
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    Only in TCMA do people over complicate the simplest of things with archaic terms and analogies, just to make themselves think they are doings something "special" or "unique".
    You aren't.
    Psalms 144:1
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    How long does familiarity take? That is individual. Look we see this in all aspects of life. When you first learn to drive you are tense but with practice comes familiarity and that leads to relaxation. So we can relax when we drive but put us on a race track where we are unfamiliar and we naturally get tense. Practice on the track and get used to driving there and you relax. It is the same in the ring. Relaxation comes through familiarity not through meditation lol.

    .
    I think what Paddingon is talking about is not so much "relaxation" but where you hold tension. If someone was completely relaxed, he wouldn't be able to stand up! You have to use muscles, and therefore tension for any kind of movement or holding of posture. If the muscle was completely relaxed, it wouldn't be working at all. The challenge is to not hold excessive tension where you don't need it or don't want it. This is learned through doing and familiarty. By being able to point out common "problem spots" to a beginner right at the start one can speed the familiarity process up quite a bit. Some people aren't even aware they are holding excessive amounts of tension in some areas until it is pointed out to them. For example, some people have become conditioned to be tense WHENEVER they drive and regardless of the driving conditions. When this is pointed out to them so they are aware of it, then they can begin to relax. Otherwise they mey go on doing something they are "familiar with" for a long time and never realize why they always have a headache when they get home from their commute!
    Last edited by KPM; 06-02-2014 at 09:13 AM.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Only in TCMA do people over complicate the simplest of things with archaic terms and analogies, just to make themselves think they are doings something "special" or "unique".
    You aren't.
    That is the thing, the idea of the 'bows' or those reference points are very, very simple. Indeed, my entire argument is based upon speeding up and simplifying the learning process. My use of more technical terminology is drawn from the theories of learning as is taught when you train to become a teacher or when you write about learning in academia (as I have done). Of course, you don't go spouting learning theories at people when you are teaching them. Those technical terms are used amongst those that teach to assess the 'better ways' to teach. You are confusing the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I think what Paddingon is talking about is not so much "relaxation" but where you hold tension. If someone was completely relaxed, he wouldn't be able to stand up! You have to use muscles, and therefore tension for any kind of movement or holding of posture. If the muscle was completely relaxed, it wouldn't be working at all. The challenge is to not hold excessive tension where you don't need it or don't want it. This is learned through doing and familiarty. By being able to point out common "problem spots" to a beginner right at the start one can speed the familiarity process up quite a bit. Some people aren't even aware they are holding excessive amounts of tension in some areas until it is pointed out to them. For example, some people have become conditioned to be tense WHENEVER they drive and regardless of the driving conditions. When this is pointed out to them so they are aware of it, then they can begin to relax. Otherwise they mey go on doing something they are "familiar with" for a long time and never realize why they always have a headache when they get home from their commute!
    Yes KPM, you sum it up well. Thanks.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    That is the thing, the idea of the 'bows' or those reference points are very, very simple. Indeed, my entire argument is based upon speeding up and simplifying the learning process. My use of more technical terminology is drawn from the theories of learning as is taught when you train to become a teacher or when you write about learning in academia (as I have done). Of course, you don't go spouting learning theories at people when you are teaching them. Those technical terms are used amongst those that teach to assess the 'better ways' to teach. You are confusing the two.
    Nope, not really.
    IF you know about bio-mechanics and kinesology and know how to express what the human body does in "English" then you don't need "bows" or "snake engine" or any of that nonsense.
    Cultural ambiguity aside ( and some people just love the cultural trappings in TCMA), there is no need for then and that can become a determent to correct learning.
    In short, they are not needed so don't teach that way.
    For everything that is explained with some exotic and esoteric "mumbo-jumbo" there is a simple and basic explanation from bio-mechanics and whatnot.
    As a wise man once said:
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't know it well enough.

    Or you are just trying to pass yourself off as "smarter" or in possession of "the real *insert token TCMA here*.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Nope, not really.
    IF you know about bio-mechanics and kinesology and know how to express what the human body does in "English" then you don't need "bows" or "snake engine" or any of that nonsense.
    Cultural ambiguity aside ( and some people just love the cultural trappings in TCMA), there is no need for then and that can become a determent to correct learning.
    In short, they are not needed so don't teach that way.
    For everything that is explained with some exotic and esoteric "mumbo-jumbo" there is a simple and basic explanation from bio-mechanics and whatnot.
    As a wise man once said:
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't know it well enough.

    Or you are just trying to pass yourself off as "smarter" or in possession of "the real *insert token TCMA here*.
    Much very good stuff here.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Nope, not really.
    IF you know about bio-mechanics and kinesology and know how to express what the human body does in "English" then you don't need "bows" or "snake engine" or any of that nonsense.
    Cultural ambiguity aside ( and some people just love the cultural trappings in TCMA), there is no need for then and that can become a determent to correct learning.
    In short, they are not needed so don't teach that way.
    For everything that is explained with some exotic and esoteric "mumbo-jumbo" there is a simple and basic explanation from bio-mechanics and whatnot.
    As a wise man once said:
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't know it well enough.

    Or you are just trying to pass yourself off as "smarter" or in possession of "the real *insert token TCMA here*.
    http://img.pandawhale.com/5458-einst...mply-ekY1.jpeg

    I'd like to remind Paddington that the apotheosis of an efficacious pedagogical paradigm is to resist the temptation to resort to an excessively sesquipedalian vocabulary and conversely to do as as TC and SR have so persuasively advocated: i.e. Keep It Simple, Stupid! LOL

    Honestly though, if explaining WC through discussing "seven bows" really simplifies things and helps Paddington's students learn faster, then more power to him. Personally, I already tend to talk too much and over-explain. My current instructor's advice runs more along the line of "Mo gung kau, gung chi sau".
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post


    I'll only respond to genuine questions and comments that take this thread forwards. I am not bothered if they are not forthcoming and people can judge for themselves what I have said and perhaps even google the terms that I have used, if they are unknown to you.
    Scratch my initial serious reply to this thread then as it was obviously waaaaaayyyy over your head.... in fact try googling it if you didn't get it

    Oh,and as Andrew said, get over yourself

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Nope, not really.
    IF you know about bio-mechanics and kinesology and know how to express what the human body does in "English" then you don't need "bows" or "snake engine" or any of that nonsense.
    Cultural ambiguity aside ( and some people just love the cultural trappings in TCMA), there is no need for then and that can become a determent to correct learning.
    In short, they are not needed so don't teach that way.
    For everything that is explained with some exotic and esoteric "mumbo-jumbo" there is a simple and basic explanation from bio-mechanics and whatnot.
    As a wise man once said:
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't know it well enough.

    Or you are just trying to pass yourself off as "smarter" or in possession of "the real *insert token TCMA here*.
    A bit ad hominem, non?

    Personally, I think it easier and more simple to explain the seven joint reference points than to give an exposition of 'kinesology' (sic) and bio-mechanics to someone new to wing chun. If you want to insist on the latter are you not in danger of contradicting yourself then? Some of the maths in such topics, which is key to understanding them, can be very complex if someone has little knowledge and skill in mathematics and physics.

    Besides, those 7 reference points I mention are covered within the scope of those sciences of the anatomy of human motion. I would also like to point out that I did not talk about 'snake' engine nor the 'mumbo jumbo' that you claim in your post.

    On a wider note, I do think it important to acknowledge the culture and beliefs that surround Chinese martial arts. I think it respectful to do so and disrespectful to point of evidencing a cultural prejudice, when not showing due respect. That is just my opinion.
    Last edited by Paddington; 06-03-2014 at 04:21 AM. Reason: added (sic) cheers Ali.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    [...]

    I'd like to remind Paddington that the apotheosis of an efficacious pedagogical paradigm is to resist the temptation to resort to an excessively sesquipedalian vocabulary and conversely to do as as TC and SR have so persuasively advocated
    [...]

    What beautiful poetry you write!

    +1

    In all seriousness, talking about the 7 joints or bows is not complicating matters. Indeed, the paradigm I suggest has no convoluted terms but the argument as to why that is the case, on why explaining the 7 bows is simplicity itself, is a pedagogical argument that entails technical terms. The criticism levied at me is, by these terms of reference, ironic.

    I make no apologies for talking as I do, it is how I think and I have already said that the pedagogical argument I make is not what is told to students new to wing chun. If people really want to counter what I say and prove me wrong, have a go at teaching a new set of students one way and another the other way. If I am shown to be wrong then yes, I will revise my opinion and acknowledge error.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Scratch my initial serious reply to this thread then as it was obviously waaaaaayyyy over your head.... in fact try googling it if you didn't get it

    Oh,and as Andrew said, get over yourself
    Perhaps my comment was not directed at you? Either way, I have contradicted myself now! You bas****!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Scratch my initial serious reply to this thread then as it was obviously waaaaaayyyy over your head.... in fact try googling it if you didn't get it

    Oh,and as Andrew said, get over yourself
    Excellent job Glenn! You have effectively applied "The Way Forward" Guideline #4:


    4. If someone dares to pursue a topic with a little conviction or passion, just tell them they are being "hysterical" and to "get over yourself!"

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