On why I think Hendrik is on to something.

[JPinAZ]

KPM, man you must really enjoy just arguing. I'm sure you will take insult by this too, but I'm really tired of tippy toeing around for you - the points you are making have nothing to do with what I think or what I've said. Your constant lumping of people together, unfounded assumptions and over reacting on things that weren't even said seems to be a constant theme with you. I'll try, a final time, to point out what I'm talking about. And if it doesn't work, nothing I can do further.

JP I gave you a perspective from the other end of the scale from what T usually spouts from his mantra. He is always focused on "sparring, sparring, sparring!" and says the same thing in almost every thread he participates in.

Actually, that isn't his mantra as far as I can read. While I don't agree with his method of delivery,the repetition, or everything he says, it's clear you continue to mis his message, no matter how many times he repeats it for you.

I talked about having an over-emphasis on sparring, not ignoring sparring. Yet you tell me I have a "very narrow and misunderstood view."

Again, people say one thing and you cherry pick their comment as saying something else. I specifically said you MAY have a very narrow view and I qualified it with an example based on what you say and how you say them and you go off the deep end. As I don't know you personally or how you train I can't say for certain what you do. But when sum up sparring by saying as "having a friendly go with your buddies.", then yes it is a fair assumption to make. I could be wrong and will appologize if proven so, but I rarely speak in absolutes, no matter how many times you try to twist it as such.

But you've never told T that his sparring mantra was "very narrow and misunderstood."

Why would I? I don't get the same impression from him by what he says as I sometimes do of you.

And here you, just like T, go assuming things about me and my training when you have no idea at all of what I actually do.

Ok, so we can clear the air, how often do you spar (no train self defense scenarios) with people outside your school? Because that was the point I was making based on the things you've said and how IMO they aren't the same types of things people that train against live resisting opponents on a regular basis would say.

So exactly who is "idling speculating" here? Sounds like you and T are best buds and you are both "idling speculating" about me. And note that I NEVER denied that sparring was valuable and had transferable skills. What I spoke out against was an over-emphasis on sparring and using it as the gold standard for everything. And weren't you the one that accused me of "cherry-picking" in another thread? Yet you ignore the points I made and to "save me a lot of typing time" simple quote the mantra man.

I find it rather insulting that I take the time to provide my own viewpoint and you and T essentially turn around and call me a liar by saying I don't actually train the way I'm talking about.

I never said you don't train like you claim. How could I? And I never called you a liar. I don't think you've ever listing all the ways you train, so again I really wouldn't know. Again, more baseless assumption. I go only by what people write. Which is why I am curious why you say the things you do (is it based on experience or speculation). Again, WAAYYYY over reacting and putting words in my mouth. You do it every time and really, it's getting old and boring.

Now, if you can stop being an a55 for a second (my opinion only) with your constant assumptions, I read all of your points in your posts. I simply don't always agree with you. Get over yourself already, it's just a forum.
If you haven't noticed, I typically quote the entire point the person I am responding to wrote when replying to them to show that I repsectfully took the time to read their whole point and reply accordingly. When you take small chunks out of context, then reply in broad brush strokes grouping people together and reply based on out of context assumptions, yes you're cherry picking. Like I pointed out at the beginning of this post. And you seem to repeat this behavior often around here. Have you noticed how many times you end up in these types of disucussions? (something to think about)

Look, I really tried to better understand your points, and I don't agree with them. If you take that as me calling you a liar, ignoring what you say, etc, well I can't help ya there man. Again, if you can't reply to what I actually write or stop putting me into groups and making broad assumptions about me, you have the option of just not replying. Or while I don't agree with this method, putting me on ignore if that's your solution, Really up to you. If you want to continue the discussion, feel free to explain how I was wrong in assuming you don't spar with people outside your school that do make sparring a regular part of their skill building and we can go from there?

[KPM]

KPM, man you must really enjoy just arguing.

I laid out my thoughts in a respectful and straight-forward manner. You replied by quoting the mantra man and yourself simply said: "you may have a narrow and misunderstood view" without actually saying why. You didn't bother to address my points and say why you disagreed with any of them. You simply said "one could assume this is because you haven't trained much or at all outside the kwoon with people that make 'sparring' a regular part of their training." So you tell me who is just being argumentative here and not trying to see the other side's viewpoint.


Your constant lumping of people together, unfounded assumptions and over reacting on things that weren't even said seems to be a constant theme with you.


Excuse me, but you lumped yourself with the mantra man when you quoted him in order to "save me a lot of typing time."

, it's clear you continue to mis his message, no matter how many times he repeats it for you.

You're wrong and assuming things again.



Again, people say one thing and you cherry pick their comment as saying something else.


So what exactly did I say you said, that you didn't actually say? Did you not say, in a rather off-handed manner, that you didn't think I actually trained? Did you not ignore every single point I made about the distinction between more of a "combatives" approach and a "sparring" approach?


I specifically said you MAY have a very narrow view

Ah! Well, excuse me counselor. In a forum like this one this is a good as calling someone a wanker!


But when sum up sparring by saying as "having a friendly go with your buddies.", then yes it is a fair assumption to make.

And I told you I was giving you the opposite end of the spectrum compared to T, did I not? I was purposefully down-playing the role of sparring, to contrast his constant over-emphasis on it. I guess you didn't get that. So again, just who is being argumentative here?



I could be wrong and will appologize if proven so, but I rarely speak in absolutes, no matter how many times you try to twist it as such.

I've been accused of being "passive-aggressive" myself at times and maybe its true. When you say things to people with qualifiers like "one could assume" and "may have" that comes across as just as "passive-aggressive" as anyone else and certainly sounds like you believe them to be true. No twisting here. That's just the nature of communication.



Why would I? I don't get the same impression from him by what he says as I sometimes do of you.

Where has he given the impression that he does anything other than spar with his classmates all the time?

Look JP, with your last post you've proven that it is just a fruitless to try and have a reasonable conversation with you as it is with T. I laid out my thoughts in a respectful way, gave examples, referenced other threads, and took time to try and be as clear as possible. I don't expect you to agree with everything I said, but I at least expect you to take it into consideration. But your last post certainly doesn't seem to show that you did. So I'm done wasting time with you.

[JPinAZ]

So I'm done wasting time with you.

Good, then I expect you to no longer reply to my posts and it'll save everyone here the hassle of having to read thru all of this dribble time and again.

Interesting though, you dodged my question about whether you train/spar with anyone outside the kwoon that do make sparring a major part of skill development twice now. And you wonder where I based my assumptions from... Don't worry, you don't have to answer as I no longer care. Feel free to have the last word, or 10. Bye bye

[Wayfaring]

How many joint locks and leverage takedowns and such are going to show up in sparring? Very little! I still say that controlling and disrupting the opponent's center of balance is an important part of Wing Chun, but it typically doesn't play a large part in sparring. Does that mean these things are unimportant? No! They are very important in a self-defense situation. I've stated before and I'll say it again....realistic training is not limited to just sparring. Sparring is a relatively narrow expression of any martial art (except kickboxing!), including Wing Chun.

Dunno man my definition of sparring seems to be quite a bit different from yours. Why not joint locks and takedowns? To me that's the simple difference between a live mma round sparring and a live hands round sparring. You either work hands / hands and feet, or you go to the tap in the round then reset whether the tap happens due to strikes or a submission. Disruption of balance happens a whole lot in mma rounds and not as much in striking/hands rounds.

If you are sparring that way I don't think self-defense scenarios are going to be a problem from a realistic fighting perspective but self defense is a much broader topic. I mean I know a top pro boxer who nobody could touch in a street fight with their hands get shanked in a bar in mexico - he didn't die. Again self defense is a different topic.

[KPM]

Good, then I expect you to no longer reply to my posts and it'll save everyone here the hassle of having to read thru all of this dribble time and again.

Interesting though, you dodged my question about whether you train/spar with anyone outside the kwoon that do make sparring a major part of skill development twice now. And you wonder where I based my assumptions from... Don't worry, you don't have to answer as I no longer care. Feel free to have the last word, or 10. Bye bye

I didn't "dodge" anything. I didn't answer because I have lost all respect for any opinion you may have and won't dignify your rather insulting tone and questions with an answer. Go dribble on yourself and have fun with your buddy T.

[tc101]

I didn't "dodge" anything. I didn't answer because I have lost all respect for any opinion you may have and won't dignify your rather insulting tone and questions with an answer. Go dribble on yourself and have fun with your buddy T.

Why don't you just be honest and say you don't spar?

Then be honest with yourself and look at why you don't want to.

[JPinAZ]

Why don't you just be honest and say you don't spar?

Then be honest with yourself and look at why you don't want to.

He has you on ignore, so he won't see your posts.
One would think it would have been easier to just answer the question and give a baseline of where his POV comes from. Instead, he chose an easy cop out and blamed me for avoiding the question. typical. The fact that he voided the question twice says a lot.

[KPM]

From post #12 on the "ranges of sparring" thread:

And not all of us see our Wing Chun as primarily intended for that environment. And those that do, should not look down their noses at those of us that don't and call us "idle speculators." I spar. But I don't not see my Wing Chun as primarily a "sparring art." Nor is my particular Wing Chun well-adapted to being a "sparring art" for that reason. Nor do I feel the need to adapt it to that environment.


So again JP, its obvious that you aren't even trying to follow what I've been saying.

[JPinAZ]

Always the same stupid games with you. I have to S P E L L E V E R Y T H I N G O U T as if I'm talking to a child.

ONE MORE TIME: I didn't ask you 'do you spar', that would be silly because as you know, I already don't agree your definition of sparring as 'having a go with your buddies' you gave at the time. So.. I specifically asked twice about the type of sparring you do per T's definition which was the point at the time, as well as if you do it with people outside the style and safety of the kwoon against people that make sparring a strong part of their skill development process. Both times you ignored the question and then conveniently blamed me for your refusal to answer. Saying "I spar" did not answer any of that.

* edit - Oh never mind

[KPM]

I owe you nothing. I don't have to prove anything. You can demand anything you want, that doesn't produce results. You are not friend, and aren't even "friendly" towards me. So why would I answer any question from you? I posted very openly and honestly here and you did not respond in kind. No "stupid games" from me. Most people would consider it rules of polite discourse. But I guess that doesn't apply here, does it? You carry on a conversation here that is nothing like what would happen in person. Your responses to my posts are a perfect example. I know you'll deny it. You'll just repeat your own "stupid games" that you play here without admitting it. So go ahead. But I've got you on the "ignore status" now as well. Because, like T, you proven to be someone that is not worth trying to have a reasonable discussion with.

[tc101]

From post #12 on the "ranges of sparring" thread:

And not all of us see our Wing Chun as primarily intended for that environment. And those that do, should not look down their noses at those of us that don't and call us "idle speculators." I spar. But I don't not see my Wing Chun as primarily a "sparring art." Nor is my particular Wing Chun well-adapted to being a "sparring art" for that reason. Nor do I feel the need to adapt it to that environment.


So again JP, its obvious that you aren't even trying to follow what I've been saying.

I know KPM won't see this but I will respond to his posts since he continues to make the same misstatements.

There is nothing wrong with doing wing chun for reasons besides developing fighting skills. You can use it for health or to preserve a cultural heritage or whatever. But when you talk about things you do not really do how is that not idle speculation. If some one talks about chi sau but doesn't do chi sau and hasn't trained chi sau what do they know about chi sau. It is the same with fighting or applying wing chun.

What KPM is saying by his wing chun is not a sparring art is he doesn't really spar and he would not fare well in sparring yet he thinks while he can't make his wing chun work in practice with some one fighting him back he will be able to when it isn't practice.

If you are not able to make your wing chun work against some one fighting you back that so called environment what do you know about making your wing chun work in fighting. That logic escapes me. Perhaps some one can explain it to me.

[JPinAZ]

I know KPM won't see this but I will respond to his posts since he continues to make the same misstatements.

There is nothing wrong with doing wing chun for reasons besides developing fighting skills. You can use it for health or to preserve a cultural heritage or whatever. But when you talk about things you do not really do how is that not idle speculation. If some one talks about chi sau but doesn't do chi sau and hasn't trained chi sau what do they know about chi sau. It is the same with fighting or applying wing chun.

What KPM is saying by his wing chun is not a sparring art is he doesn't really spar and he would not fare well in sparring yet he thinks while he can't make his wing chun work in practice with some one fighting him back he will be able to when it isn't practice.

If you are not able to make your wing chun work against some one fighting you back that so called environment what do you know about making your wing chun work in fighting. That logic escapes me. Perhaps some one can explain it to me.

As long as he's happy with what he's doing, more power to him I say. But I would agree if someone says that he does seem to be quite a bit disillusioned about the reality of things. I really think he's a little emotionally unstable the way he hit's the big Ignore button when people simply don't agree with him. Ah well, he'll get no complaints from me if he doesn't reply to my posts any more!

[anerlich]

I do not think there is such a thing as violating wing chun principles. I do not think there is a wing chun rule book that you have to follow.

I basically agree with this. Though if someone sparred with me and did lots of hooks, swinging punches, and roundhouse kicks I probably wouldn't peg him as a WC guy.

I can't think of a specific example in WC, but I remember when 50/50 guard first became popular in BJJ I though it "violated BJJ principles" as I understood them. BJJ 101 as I understood it being, "move from an inferior position of control to a better one, repeat, and then apply a submission hold," whereas 50/50 seemed to be "get my opponent in the exact same position as me then hope I'm better at working from there than he is".

I'm still not a great fan of 50/50 for that reason, but I still work it occasionally and have a couple of counters and escapes. Can't let those young whippersnappers bamboozle you with technology.

[PalmStriker]

As long as he's happy with what he's doing, more power to him I say. But I would agree if someone says that he does seem to be quite a bit disillusioned about the reality of things. I really think he's a little emotionally unstable the way he hit's the big Ignore button when people simply don't agree with him. Ah well, he'll get no complaints from me if he doesn't reply to my posts any more!

So, how's it feel not to exist?

[JPinAZ]

So, how's it feel not to exist?

lol, bah, I exist whether KPM sees me or not
It was funny, he put T on ignore and then continued to talk about him and reply to what he said for 4 or 5 posts! He's like a kid that sticks his fingers in his ears crying 'Naaa Naa na Naaa Naaa - I can't hear you, I can't hear you' and then follows after you when you walk away still crying "I can't hear you! Did you hear me?? I said, I can't hear you!"