Wing chun long, medium, or short range sparring?

[JPinAZ]

John, to give a bit more of my perspective, we do something a little similar to what you are doing with our noi gwa sau, which is part of out Cheurn Kiu Sau/long range bridging engagement tools. The difference here is, instead of standing in directly in front of our opponent and engaging both hands, we would employ our 6-Gate Heaven/Human/Earth footwork while engaging the initial punch/jab with our engaging kiu covering from shoulder-line (out) to center (in) in somewhat similar fashion to what you are doing, only feeding it offline and then covering the A-to-B center with fwd energy in one motion via loi lau hoi sung, so as to take out some of the timing off the second punch coming in.

Of course in application things don't always work out like you'd like But the point of covering center after 'receiving' the energy form the first punch (loi lau hoi sung) is to take the sails out of the first punch and set up a strong angle & position so as the second punch comes in, you are in a better spot to deal with it.

[YouKnowWho]

You even admitted the haymaker defense techniques were being thrown downward, not fwd.

I think we are clear on all the other comments. I didn't say this clip is using the WC principle. I just ask people's opinion on whether WC guys will use "Chinese spear" strategy. By using the Chinese spear, you will move your spear in circle to press down your opponent's attacking spear. you then stab (this the fwd that you are talking about). The downward is the 1st part, the forward is the 2nd part. Together it creates a 3D "spiral".

Sorry that I didn't start with the complete clip. I thought by using partial clip, we can concentrate our discussion on "Chinese spear" strategy. By showing the whole clip, other people may think that I try to discuss non-WC subject in a WC thread (may be that's exactly what I'm doing ).

[JPinAZ]

No problem John! Maybe I missed the spearing question, the question you asked that I was answering was "Here is an example by using "double downward haymakers" to "protect your center from outside in". Is this principle used in the WC system?".

What you are describing in your last post about the spiral is somewhat along the line what I am talking about, only I don't think I focus on the downward as you may, and the 'spiral' comes form the outside and spirals off line and then back to center. The main difference being, the application in the video does not represent what I'm talking about and I wouldn't call what you are doing the same as what I define as Noi Gwa Sau, which is more of a crane wing arm signature and plays more horizontally vs down and then fwd. But I do understand and appreciate your analogy as well!

While I agree what you are saying with the spear analogy and it is a viable application of actual spear fighting, Biu ('Chinese spearing') techniques as I understand them from my lineage's perspective are typically for bridging on center, to the the inside of the opponent's lead arm and moving in a more up and forward motion on center for the most part, not down and in as in your video. Again, just different understanding of the terms and applications?

So while we do use use Biu/Spearing hand to engage, it is more a flip side of the coin of out-to-in. Instead of using Noi Gwa Sau to cover out-to-in in our long range Churn Kiu Sau, we use Loi Lap Sau to cover in-to-out for long range engagement. The initial engagement shape is very much a spearing motion that we call Biu Jong Sau/spearing structure hand. But, it is spearing fwd from and on center/'in' and making contact on the kiu/arm (outside of my forearm with the inside of his forearm) before we go 'out' to open up our opponent for striking. Loi Lap Sau is the complete action for the full loi lau hoi sung cycle, where the biu/spear is the first part of engagement and centerline domination. But, as I described in my earlier post about noi gwa sau, we use 6-gate H/H/E footwork when engaging with loi lap sau as well vs dealing with both opponent's hands head on as in your clip. For that, we use something else entirely

(lol, hope all of this makes sense)

[KPM]

Here is an example by using "double downward haymakers" to "protect your center from outside in". Is this principle used in the WC system?

Kinda sort of. I learned to protect from "outside in" by using a "cutting' or "excluding" punch that is similar to your video but with the elbow down and not a "haymaker." It cuts into the center to deflect or "exclude" the opponent's punch with the forearm as you are punching. The deflecting is downward while moving forward, while at the same time the punch is forward while moving downward with a slight up-turn at the end, so something of a "spiral" as you mention.

[YouKnowWho]

with the elbow down and not a "haymaker." It cuts into the center to deflect or "exclude" the opponent's punch with the forearm as you are punching. The deflecting is downward while moving forward, while at the same time the punch is forward while moving downward with a slight up-turn at the end, so something of a "spiral" as you mention.

I understand exactly what you are talking about. Your "spiral" starts while your elbow is still (or almost) in your center line. You then apply Bong Shou (without raising your elbow that much), deflect your opponent's punching arm, and enter. This move is also commonly used in the long fist system.

[KPM]

I understand exactly what you are talking about. Your "spiral" starts while your elbow is still (or almost) in your center line. You then apply Bong Shou (without raising your elbow that much), deflect your opponent's punching arm, and enter. This move is also commonly used in the long fist system.

Not exactly what I am thinking of John. No Bong Sau motion. Its actually a Chum Sau motion into a straight punch.

[Faux Newbie]

John, would it be fair to say that, in that video, unlike what others are describing as the wing chun approach, which, if I'm understanding correctly, here is oriented around shutting down the opponent's limb and taking the center, in what you do, since throws and take downs are your goal, you want to continue (instead of shut down) their momentum to use in a throw, thus affecting their center (versus taking it)?

[YouKnowWho]

shutting down the opponent's limb and taking the center,...

You are correct. Instead of using the WC "shut down" principle, you "redirect" your opponent's arms away from your moving path (as long as his arms won't bother you). Since most of the body contact throws have to use your back to touch your opponent's chest, to "take the center" is quite proper.

When you enter, you have to consider your own safety. So not only you want to touch both of your arms on your opponent's arms, you also want to touch your leading leg on your opponent's leading leg. This way you will know exactly where your opponent arms and leg are. This concept is exactly the same as the WC "sticky hands", but you want more. You may call this "chasing arms". It is "chasing arms" because when you can use your arms to touch your opponent's arms, you can easily use your arms to touch his body or head after that.

The "sticky hand" and "clinch" are very similar. One has striking in mind. The other has grappling in mind.

[Hendrik]

You are correct. Instead of using the WC "shut down" principle, you "redirect" your opponent's arms away from your moving path (as long as his arms won't bother you). Since most of the body contact throws have to use your back to touch your opponent's chest, to "take the center" is quite proper.

When you enter, you have to consider your own safety. So not only you want to touch both of your arms on your opponent's arms, you also want to touch your leading leg on your opponent's leading leg. This way you will know exactly where your opponent arms and leg are. This concept is exactly the same as the WC "sticky hands", but you want more. You may call this "chasing arms". It is "chasing arms" because when you can use your arms to touch your opponent's arms, you can easily use your arms to touch his body or head after that.

The "sticky hand" and "clinch" are very similar. One has striking in mind. The other has grappling in mind.

John,

IMHO, clinch and sticky hand are similar. And what you say on touch , track , and consider safety is completely agree. Same with the teaching in my lineage of Wck.

The different between chasing hand and threaten center axis ( I don't use the term forward pressure because that is Ipman Wck term and not completely the same with what I am describe) is that threaten the center axis means threaten or disrupt the next move of the opponent momentum. While chasing hand doesn't have that effect.

What you are demo is an outside gate technic. Different from inner door capturing. In outside gate technic, one pull the Opponent to threaten his center axis instead of forward pressure to make it overkill and disrupt its momentum. Your demo doesn't do this.


Your demo is mostly an action force type, where Wck I understood is an action and reaction force play, at every step, make use of the opponent to jam or disrupt his own momentum, no matter it is long fist range or stick clinch range , that is capture center axis or not chasing hand .

That is why snake engine is important because at close sticking range one needs the power . This also made the different between your propose of roundhouse kick and I prefer step in. Because you are using a forward stance while I am using a back stance as in our salutation photo where shooting into the opponent crush his structure is one of the goal.


What I describe above is the different, not who is better.

[Minghequan]

Man! He attacks you respond .... Simple!

[YouKnowWho]

The "chasing hands" is like the "fly fishing" that you try to throw your fishing hook to where the fish are (your fishing hook chases the fish). Before you can use your arms to wrap around your opponent's body, you have to touch your arms on his arms first. Otherwise when you try to use your arms to wrap his body, his fists will land on your head. From a grappler's point of view, if you can wrap your opponent's arms, you can take his striking tools away. If you then try to wrap his body, it will be much safer after that.

[Hendrik]

The "chasing hands" is like the "fly fishing" that you try to throw your fishing hook to where the fish are. In order to wrap your opponent's body, you have to wrap his arms first. From a grappler's point of view, if you can wrap your opponent's arms, you can take his striking tools away.

That is perfectly fine.

But WCK I know doesn't make that type of big move because wck is 以靜制動。like a spider wait with small move.

In Wck I know point of view, every gate of the body can issue force . So it is not a striking only art.

Issuing is faster then striking because issuing is issue at contact. Not always need to moving the limbs to strike.


So, different concept and engine needed.

[Minghequan]

The ONLY "Engine" and the ONLY "concept" need is that of a quick and devastating response or action to the intended threat of violence! No Snakes, no Emei just do it or are you going to ask your attacker to refrain while you work out which "Engine" your going to use .... Jeez!

[tc101]

The ONLY "Engine" and the ONLY "concept" need is that of a quick and devastating response or action to the intended threat of violence! No Snakes, no Emei just do it or are you going to ask your attacker to refrain while you work out which "Engine" your going to use .... Jeez!

You see that is what you get when academic speculators get an arm chair round table going on WHAT THEY WOULD DO. It's simply amazing. If you want to know how it's really done its simple look at the guys really doing it like Orr Obasi Spain and so forth there it is. Oh yeah the problem is that what you see real wing chun fighters doing does not match their idle speculations. No matter just ignore the evidence.

[tc101]

Never thought I'd say this, but I actually agree with carzy ol hendrik on this. I think it's great that John posts clips to give a better visual of what he's talking about, IMO the video posted, while a totally acceptable defense application, is more out-to-out, chasing hands and pure defensive in nature from a WC perspective.

WC is about simultaneous offense/defense. I didn't see this in the clip as there is no fwd pressure toward center, no fwd connection to your opponent and no 2 hands working as one. 'Protecting center' and 'occupying center with fwd intent' are 2 different things. For it to fit with my understanding of WC's 'out-to-in', you should be going from a place where you have no structure on the A-to-B center to a place where you do occupy A-to-B centerline with structure and fwd intend (simply put). While you are very well going to find instances where you will have to engage with your hands starting at your sides (out) and cannot set up and initial bai jong position (whether you were caught off guard ot chose not to for tactical/strategic reasons) , you should cover the centerline when engaging (in) for it to be WC's out-to-in IMO.

Maybe you can point me to one just one one one one wing chun fighter that is using simultaneous offense and defense the way you think it works.

Yes simultaneous offense and defense is ONE concept or tactic in wing chun but that is not what wing chun is about as you put it. If you are referring to lien siu die da as I learned the concept is to use your defense to set up your offense.

My perspective is looking at a demo type clip and then discussing whether or not it shows something you might do in wing chun is idle speculation. If you want to see how wing chun fighters do things just look at wing chun fighters and see. START with the wing chun guy fighting start with that and go from there.