Wing chun long, medium, or short range sparring?

[kung fu fighter]

I'm not saying this is the best example of Wing Chun, but in this video the Wing Chun player uses the basic strategy of immediately closing with the opponent. So his opponent hardly ever has a chance to get off any kicks. If the Wing Chun guy had spent any time at long range, he would have ended up eating a lot more of the TKD guy's kicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loBzTo07oS4

The wing chun guy is chasing his TKD opponent, which can get you into trouble if the TKD opponent kew how to circle like a boxer with his footwork

not the best, but here is a better example starting at 0:44 into this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8B6eNm2zs

When i close the distance, i can do it in one step and completely shut the opponent down and distroy his body structure to the point where he is off balance and can't move or step away. it's not check, it's check mate, but you have to have very good timing to be able to pull it off.

Starting at 2:29 into this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3eW0hfy0U was the closest I could find on youtube to the timing I am referring to, except I don't necessarily stand still and wait or step directly down the centerline, I wait for the opponent to come at me, I can bring the fight to the opponent, or I can cut the opponent off by being proactive. The secret is to take the inner gate centerline as Hendrik has mentioned on here before.

In wing chun if you have to chase the opponent in any way, form, or method, you've already lost the wck timing. Regardless of whether you are chasing his hands or chasing his body or feet. You will be at the mercy of the opponent if he is experienced at long fist power generation arts such as CLF MMA or western boxing or close range grappling power generation arts such as wrestling/BJJ and you will always be one step behind on timing reacting and being lead by him instead of being proactive and leading him. The opponent will completely control you timing and distance. In my experience there is no superior art, every art has it's strengths and weaknesses, wck strength is targeting the inner gate centerline and it's weakness is chasing an opponent at long range. Whoever control the distance and timing in a fight can usually play their game and win the fight. Lyoto Machida in UFC is a prime example of this, he has dominated every one of his opponent when his distancing and timing in on point. The only times he has lost is when his opponent was able to control the distance, such as with his fight against shogun Rua.

There is no principle in wck that tells us to ever chase an opponent, this is a modern evolution based on people's interpretation of the art.

It would be interesting to hear what sanjuro_ronin, Liddell or other wck people who spar with western boxers or MMA fights have to say regarding what I wrote above

[Paddington]

[...] It's just one of the things those of us at the Bilderberg do.
[...]

That line did crack a smile.

[Wayfaring]

It would be interesting to hear what sanjuro_ronin, Liddell or other wck people who spar with western boxers or MMA fights have to say regarding what I wrote above

Close the distance so you are not sitting in a pocket waiting to get hit with long range techniques. When you close the distance do it with control and don't overextend yourself.

This isn't rocket science.

[kung fu fighter]

That line did crack a smile.

yeah, me too lol

[Faux Newbie]

All right Bilderburg. "If you are always waiting for the other person's actions, it will make you a very limited fighter" Of course you weren't talking about wing chun fighters on a thread about wing chun sparring here. This must be referring to some other type of fighter altogether.

To clarify, this is more in reference to what I was asking, probably some pages back, about what a good wing chun fighter does to deal with long range. To make myself clearer, it is my assumption that they don't just stand there. But I also know that in my own style and in wing chun, there are people who take the idea of always only responding to an attack too literally, and do not use footwork pre-contact to help themselves much. I am distinguishing, focusing on what a good wing chun fighter would do. I am not trying to say the comment above applies to such a fighter.

But yes, typically you are not going to be facing TKD long range kicks or Muhammed Ali type jabs out of a wing chun fighter.

[kung fu fighter]

Close the distance so you are not sitting in a pocket waiting to get hit with long range techniques. When you close the distance do it with control and don't overextend yourself.

yes, I agree! however there are different strategies used to accomplish this. One of them is the man sao wu sao concept. This is why I had asked the question about how HFY wck used it's Two Lines of offense and defense (Wu Sao and Mun Sao hand positions) to measure time and distance to target. and how the relationship between these two points helps gauge time: when to strike vs stick/bridge, within any distance: close/mid/far, inside/outside, etc?

Too bad Savi is not still around, he would have been able to give a decent detailed answer?

This is what happens when a wing chun fighter chases a long fist type fighter Starting at 18:03 into this clip http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjg0MTMwMjA4.html

[JPinAZ]

Too bad Savi is not still around, he would have been able to give a decent detailed answer?

Ignoring the insult toward us that chose not to answer you with a 'decent detailed answer', and not to speak for Savi, but I have a feeling he wouldn't reply as you assume he would given your previous and recent track record of deleting HFY member's comments with your personal style of thread moderation..

[YouKnowWho]

Someone told me that one of Dan Inosanto's students "A" challenged a dog brother's member "B" in stick fight. A stood stationary while B was running around. When B picked up speed, B ran toward A with full speed and momentum and took A down. It's like the horseback soldiers charge in against the foot soldier. The horseback soldiers have the momentum and speed advantage. It's difficult for the foot soldiers to maintain their range when the horseback soldiers attack with full force.

I didn't see this before. This is really a lot of what I was getting at with the earlier discussion of feints and fakes. If you are always waiting for the other person's actions, it will make you a very limited fighter. Part of knowing how to deal with an offense is actually being able to make an offense, imo.

In my story, after the JKD instructor had matched against that dog brother, that JKD instructor had spent 5 years to figure out the proper solution.

IMO, the solution is simple. You can just move yourself out of your opponent's moving path. The issue is when your opponent charged in with lighting speed, you have to move away in lighting speed too.

[Faux Newbie]

In my story, after the JKD instructor had matched against that dog brother, that JKD instructor had spent 5 years to figure out the proper solution.

IMO, the solution is simple. You can just move yourself out of your opponent's moving path. The issue is when your opponent charged in with lighting speed, you have to move away in lighting speed too.

But that does not involve qi. Clearly you must be mistaken!

I think a lot of issues boil down to knowing where to step. I remember working on throws and counter throws with some training buddies, and then watching a SJ clip you put up, and realizing how important this is in throwing, knowing your relative position to them.

When I train people now, I always start every session with them matching footwork, so one person leads, but their partner tries to mirror but arrive first, even though they started after. Then, I have them do it with gripping, so they get used to feeling their partners center of balance and how it shifts as they move.

[GlennR]

It would be interesting to hear what sanjuro_ronin, Liddell or other wck people who spar with western boxers or MMA fights have to say regarding what I wrote above

I box now and have done Muay Thai for the last 5 years so i have some insight into those two styles approach.

But ill start by saying its all about context.

Are we talking ring craft or self defense??? I like EB's approach to self defense, close the gap ASAP, strike, kick whatever.... thats WC (to me anyhow), but that isnt going to work for very long in the ring.
Ive seen plenty of WC have the same issues, if they cant bridge and maintain that preferred range they really struggle.
But is that any surprise?
Its taught as a quick, close the gap self defense style with a focus on that mid-short range striking range............. try maintaining that range with a good boxer or MT guy in the ring.... it wont work

My two cents worth

[kung fu fighter]

I box now and have done Muay Thai for the last 5 years so i have some insight into those two styles approach.

But ill start by saying its all about context.

Are we talking ring craft or self defense??? I like EB's approach to self defense, close the gap ASAP, strike, kick whatever.... thats WC (to me anyhow), but that isnt going to work for very long in the ring.
Ive seen plenty of WC have the same issues, if they cant bridge and maintain that preferred range they really struggle.
But is that any surprise?
Its taught as a quick, close the gap self defense style with a focus on that mid-short range striking range............. try maintaining that range with a good boxer or MT guy in the ring.... it wont work

My two cents worth

Thanks for the reply Glen!
having competed in san da tournaments as well as sparring with professional K1 muai thai fighters, pro boxers and pro MMA fighters I agree with everything you wrote above in regards to applying wing chun in the ring environment. Based on my experience I developed a ring fighting wing chun system.

Please share your experience of what happens when a wing chun fighter trys to chase or pusue a boxer or muai thai fighter in the ring environment?

[Faux Newbie]

I box now and have done Muay Thai for the last 5 years so i have some insight into those two styles approach.

But ill start by saying its all about context.

Are we talking ring craft or self defense??? I like EB's approach to self defense, close the gap ASAP, strike, kick whatever.... thats WC (to me anyhow), but that isnt going to work for very long in the ring.
Ive seen plenty of WC have the same issues, if they cant bridge and maintain that preferred range they really struggle.
But is that any surprise?
Its taught as a quick, close the gap self defense style with a focus on that mid-short range striking range............. try maintaining that range with a good boxer or MT guy in the ring.... it wont work

My two cents worth

I actually often try to work both the idea of working positioning through footwork (like ringcraft) and also approaches that assume that I have no such luxury. I had not really thought about this in relation to wing chun, but it is food for thought, especially since the style does seem to work on the premise of getting the heck in there asap. Good post.

[Wayfaring]

Too bad Savi is not still around, he would have been able to give a decent detailed answer?

Did you need me to pass along a request to Savi for a written private lesson?

This is what happens when a wing chun fighter chases a long fist type fighter Starting at 18:03 into this clip http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjg0MTMwMjA4.html

Johnny Rhodes vs. Dave Levicki in UFC 2?

Is illustrating exactly what again?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It would be interesting to hear what sanjuro_ronin, Liddell or other wck people who spar with western boxers or MMA fights have to say regarding what I wrote above

IME WC ( and pretty much every "specialized" system) is ideal for being used under the context it was developed for.
Southern hand systems tend to work best while fighting in a "phone booth" and with an "extended gate/bridge".
Under those conditions DURING a fight (ring or otherwise) they work really freaking well.
NEVER CHASE anything, let it come to you ( sort of speaking), start "last" but arrive first ( all southern hand people know what that means).
The only centerline that matter is YOURS.
The "specialized skill set" of WC ( and Pak mei, and SPM and so forth) are, IMO, "weapons of opportunity".
Guys that have a practical background and have fought other systems KNOW what I mean.

[kung fu fighter]

Johnny Rhodes vs. Dave Levicki in UFC 2?

Is illustrating exactly what again?

18:03 into this clip http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjg0MTMwMjA4.html is illustrating what happens when you pursue/chase a long fist type fighter with forward pressure, you know like you say you HFY WCK fighters.

IME WC ( and pretty much every "specialized" system) is ideal for being used under the context it was developed for.
Southern hand systems tend to work best while fighting in a "phone booth" and with an "extended gate/bridge".
Under those conditions DURING a fight (ring or otherwise) they work really freaking well.
NEVER CHASE anything, let it come to you ( sort of speaking), start "last" but arrive first ( all southern hand people know what that means).
The only centerline that matter is YOURS.
The "specialized skill set" of WC ( and Pak mei, and SPM and so forth) are, IMO, "weapons of opportunity".
Guys that have a practical background and have fought other systems KNOW what I mean.

Thanks for the reply! I agree! I think most fighters who have practical experienced in the ring or on the street will pretty much come to the same conclusion. The only difference I found between ring fighting and real world self defence is how I adjust my distance to get into the "phone booth".