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Thread: Wing chun long, medium, or short range sparring?

  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    "chase hands"...
    I would like to change "chase hands" to "chase arms". If I can use both of my arms to jam both of my opponent's arms, the striking game is over and the grappling game just starts. It can be a good strategy.

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  2. #392
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    In an earlier post I mentioned this, you disagreed with me

    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Ok, I think i understand what you are referring to, do you mean using your footwork to maintain your wck distance, for example if the opponent takes two steps back, you take two forward ?.
    But now you post the exact same thing. Lol

    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    my understanding of WC's chase & pursue concepts are about once you are already in WC's preferred distance for striking with both hands equally from a facing and positional of advantage and how to maintain it - not about how to get there.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    LOL, I mean gap of course
    A bridge isn't always made with physical contact, sometimes it is enough for them to cross "over the bridge" into your "sphere of influence" OR you can make an "intentional bridge" in which you are able to read his intent and preempt.
    I agree! Especially with "intentional bridge" in which you are able to read his intent and preempt.[/QUOTE]

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Newbie View Post
    At long range, it's pretty much bridging and footwork, unless there is long range attacks I'm not aware of.
    Here is a long range "entering strategy" that we have not discussed yet (I had successfully used it in fighting before).

    - You start with right leg forward,
    - step in your left leg,
    - jump up from your left leg,
    - before you land your right leg, your right hand punch at your opponent's face (while your body is still in the air).

    This footwork will cover 1 full step + 1 jump step. It can cover 10 feet in distance if you have good jumping ability. If your opponent steps back, after you have landed your right leg, you can land your left leg behind your right leg as a "stealing step" along with a follow up right "side kick". This whole sequence of footwork can cover 15 feet in distance.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 06-27-2014 at 09:59 PM.
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  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    In an earlier post I mentioned this, you disagreed with me

    But now you post the exact same thing. Lol
    Ok, do you want a cookie now?
    But, did I really post the exact same thing?

    Both of those statements - as they stand without any of the background context - could be talking about 2 very different things, which may very well be the case. Your statement doesn't give a specific example of what you were referring to - you could be talking about 2 guys standing 15 feet from each other, one following the other. TBH, I don't know if you really understood what I was saying because WC chase and pursue as I understand could use footwork and then again it could not.

    But since you have such a strong desire to be right and say we are saying the same thing (and maybe you are right), so please help me out. Since I don't have the time to go back thru the whole discussion, quickly explain your view again. And then explain what you understand of what I was talking about and then we can see if you're right and we can both have a good LOL over it all...
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 06-28-2014 at 12:40 AM.
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  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    I would like to change "chase hands" to "chase arms". If I can use both of my arms to jam both of my opponent's arms, the striking game is over and the grappling game just starts. It can be a good strategy.
    True, but typically not one a WC practitioner would use.
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  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Newbie View Post
    Obviously, after a point, it is entrained, and one is no longer really doing technique, but expressing principle.
    Exactly. A wise man often said "It's all technique, then it's no technique, then it's all technique again". It all depends on your level of understanding and focus.

    As for the rest, I can't argue with you. I agree with a lot of what you said and to me it is basic common-sense knowledge of skill development and fighting in general - regardless of art. But I'm trying to talk more specifically about WC methods/concepts/principles and how they are applied to various situations - beyond just common generalities. And I think you are still missing some of the key points I am trying to make in regards to WC methods and application form a WC POV (which is the point of this sub-forum yeah? WC? )

    While I appreciate your views, somehow the discussion always turns back to the basic generalities that apply to any art and not WC specifically. It's hard to tell if you have a general interest in wing chun or just trying to disprove or minimize it. But it's hard to dialog with someone that seems a bit closed off to WC ideas and generalizes other's POV. Just something to think about.
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  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The "chase and pursue" concept means that once we make contact, we don't break contact until it is over.
    You "chase and pursue" the incapacitation of your opponent.
    One of the key principles in all southern hand ( WC being no exception) is that we "offer" the opponent a chance either to fight or run, it's his choice BUT then after he makes it, we finish it for him.
    We "seek" the bridge in the sense that we "look" for the opportunity to make contact ( even a non-physical contact), we do not force it but let it "come to us".
    That doesn't mean being reactive since we are actively "looking for it", it means we play our game rather than play theirs.
    How do we "close the gab"?
    We don't, we let it be closed for us because, until that happens there is NO fight.
    I agree with SR 100%. And this is why I don't see Wing Chun as a "sparring art." What SR describes above is much more of a "combatives" mindset. Let me say again before someone gets all excited and comes after me.....I do believe sparring is valuable and has its place, but as I've said many times already it should not be the "gold standard" for Wing Chun. In a sparring scenario there IS a fight, that's why you are there. Someone has to go after the other person. You can't just stand there and stare at each other. In a sparring scenario you typically engage, disengage, re-engage, etc. through-out the sparring session. The main Wing Chun strategy that SR is describing above functions once contact is made, and once contact is made you keep going until one or the other of you can't go anymore! In a combatives/street/self-defense (whatever you want to call it) scenario an aggressor is coming after YOU. He chooses to fight and close with YOU, as SR says. Once you close in you what to finish things and not have to close again. In a sparring scenario you may have to go after or "pursue" your partner/opponent from long range to make contact. I think that's why ideas have been bouncing back and forth in this thread and people are talking past each other at times. Its a difference between a combatives mindset (which I believe is at the core of Wing Chun) and a sparring mindset.

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Here is a long range "entering strategy" that we have not discussed yet (I had successfully used it in fighting before).

    - You start with right leg forward,
    - step in your left leg,
    - jump up from your left leg,
    - before you land your right leg, your right hand punch at your opponent's face (while your body is still in the air).

    This footwork will cover 1 full step + 1 jump step. It can cover 10 feet in distance if you have good jumping ability. If your opponent steps back, after you have landed your right leg, you can land your left leg behind your right leg as a "stealing step" along with a follow up right "side kick". This whole sequence of footwork can cover 15 feet in distance.
    That sounds like an MMA "Superman Punch" John!

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Ok, do you want a cookie now?
    But, did I really post the exact same thing?

    Both of those statements - as they stand without any of the background context - could be talking about 2 very different things, which may very well be the case. Your statement doesn't give a specific example of what you were referring to - you could be talking about 2 guys standing 15 feet from each other, one following the other. TBH, I don't know if you really understood what I was saying because WC chase and pursue as I understand could use footwork and then again it could not.

    But since you have such a strong desire to be right and say we are saying the same thing (and maybe you are right), so please help me out. Since I don't have the time to go back thru the whole discussion, quickly explain your view again. And then explain what you understand of what I was talking about and then we can see if you're right and we can both have a good LOL over it all...

    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Ok, I think i understand what you are referring to, do you mean using your footwork to maintain your wck distance, for example if the opponent takes two steps back, you take two forward ?.
    I was referring to Maintaining wck short strike range distance once you have already closed thr gap into trapping/sticking distance, not about how to get there.[/QUOTE]

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I don't see Wing Chun as a "sparring art." What SR describes above is much more of a "combatives" mindset. I do believe sparring is valuable and has its place, but as I've said many times already it should not be the "gold standard" for Wing Chun. In a sparring scenario there IS a fight, that's why you are there. Someone has to go after the other person. You can't just stand there and stare at each other. In a sparring scenario you typically engage, disengage, re-engage, etc. through-out the sparring session. The main Wing Chun strategy that SR is describing above functions once contact is made, and once contact is made you keep going until one or the other of you can't go anymore! In a combatives/street/self-defense (whatever you want to call it) scenario an aggressor is coming after YOU. He chooses to fight and close with YOU, as SR says. Once you close in you what to finish things and not have to close again. In a sparring scenario you may have to go after or "pursue" your partner/opponent from long range to make contact. I think that's why ideas have been bouncing back and forth in this thread and people are talking past each other at times. Its a difference between a combatives mindset (which I believe is at the core of Wing Chun) and a sparring mindset.
    I agree! That's why I have different strategies for closing the gap from long range. Depending on whether I am sparring or real world combat.

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    I was referring to Maintaining wck short strike range distance once you have already closed thr gap into trapping/sticking distance, not about how to get there.
    Ok. But that doesn't fully answer my question. So am I to assume this is also what you believe I understand WC chase/pursue to be?
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 06-29-2014 at 09:12 AM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    True, but typically not one a WC practitioner would use.
    Most of the time, your enemy may not be a WC guy. You will need to deal with what he may do to you. The example that I used indicate that bridge may not be possible if your opponent using some long range entering strategy.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 06-28-2014 at 10:26 AM.
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  14. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Newbie View Post
    If my number one goal were to close with the intent of shutting down, I would be seeking to do so when it would work, not just any time. If I have to close, then I rob myself of this opportunity. Closing is only gaining initiative if it's not something you're stuck doing. Otherwise, it is the other guy forcing my actions
    So in other words you would hang out in TKD kicking range and get destroyed due to your indecision as to when you should close or not.

  15. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I agree with SR 100%. And this is why I don't see Wing Chun as a "sparring art." What SR describes above is much more of a "combatives" mindset. Let me say again before someone gets all excited and comes after me.....I do believe sparring is valuable and has its place, but as I've said many times already it should not be the "gold standard" for Wing Chun. In a sparring scenario there IS a fight, that's why you are there. Someone has to go after the other person. You can't just stand there and stare at each other. In a sparring scenario you typically engage, disengage, re-engage, etc. through-out the sparring session. The main Wing Chun strategy that SR is describing above functions once contact is made, and once contact is made you keep going until one or the other of you can't go anymore! In a combatives/street/self-defense (whatever you want to call it) scenario an aggressor is coming after YOU. He chooses to fight and close with YOU, as SR says. Once you close in you what to finish things and not have to close again. In a sparring scenario you may have to go after or "pursue" your partner/opponent from long range to make contact. I think that's why ideas have been bouncing back and forth in this thread and people are talking past each other at times. Its a difference between a combatives mindset (which I believe is at the core of Wing Chun) and a sparring mindset.
    100% disagree. There is no such thing as a "sparring art". Unless maybe slap boxing. People who think Wing Chun and the core of it is some duper deadly self defense art that only kicks in because you have a "combatives mindset" as opposed to a kickboxer who has a "sportive mindset" are going to get themselves hurt.

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