Wing chun long, medium, or short range sparring?

[HybridWarrior]

Is this also called the "battle punch"?

Hmmm. Dunno...I've never heard of that term before.

[Faux Newbie]

Hmmm. Dunno...I've never heard of that term before.

When I looked up wing chun pole punch on you tube, a number of videos came up like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pVE4_WUhAA

Most say it's prepatory for long pole, so I wasn't sure this was the same thing.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is an example by using "double downward haymakers" to "protect your center from outside in". Is this principle used in the WC system?

[Hendrik]

Here is an example by using "double downward haymakers" to "protect your center from outside in". Is this principle used in the WC system?

John ,

IMHO, you are slapping hand defensible instead of Wck attack the center line offensively. This is chasing hands

[YouKnowWho]

John ,

IMHO, you are slapping hand has no action toward center line.

Your opponent use straight punches such as jab and cross to hit your face, you use double downward haymakers to deflect both punches. Is that to "protect your center"?

[Hendrik]

Your opponent use straight punches such as jab and cross to hit your face, you use double downward haymakers to deflect both punches. Is that to "protect your center"?

IMHO, you are slapping hand defensively instead of Wck attack the center line offensively target the structure. Your technic is chasing hands

[YouKnowWho]

IMHO, you are slapping hand defensively instead of Wck attack the center line offensively target the structure. Your technic is chasing hands

In that clip, it was used 100% for defense. Because the offense after that was cut off from that clip on purpose. You can use WC Tan Shou to set up something. You can also use downward haymaker to set up something.

[Hendrik]

In that clip, it was used 100% for defense. Because the offense after that was cut off from that clip on purpose. You can use WC Tan Shou to set up something. You can also use downward haymaker to set up something.

IMHO,

This is one step late and putting one is defensive position. There is no significant effect on the opponent. He is free to do his next attack, while you will be busy trying to defense it . He is in control of the situation.

[HybridWarrior]

When I looked up wing chun pole punch on you tube, a number of videos came up like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pVE4_WUhAA

Most say it's prepatory for long pole, so I wasn't sure this was the same thing.

One is preparatory, the other is applied. That's all. I have done the exercise in the video you posted (though slightly different) and it is basically a power and conditioning exercise one can do before learning pole. The application of the pole punch is quite different. Thx.

[HybridWarrior]

Is this principle used in the WC system?

Yes, though I'm sure it most likely lineage specific.

[YouKnowWho]

IMHO,

This is one step late and putting one is defensive position. There is no significant effect on the opponent. He is free to do his next attack, while you will be busy trying to defense it . He is in control of the situation.

You started with your arms away from your center. When your opponent punches at you, you then use double haymakers (Chinese spear technique) that not only deflect (press down) your opponent's punches, it also moves your arms between your opponent's arms (this is the main goal). This way, you can enter his "front door". The effect is shown a bit later.

You may argue, "Why don't you keep your arms in your center to start with?" Sometime you may like to

- use hook punches to hit on the side of your opponent's head.
- open your center, invite your opponent to come in.
- ...

Since your arms are outside and your opponent's arms are inside. By using this strategy, you will have your arms to be inside of your opponent's arms. This is why I call it to "protect your center from outside in".

This is the rest of that clip (still not the whole thing - the rest of the move has nothing to do with this discussion). This is a good example that you use "spiral" to deal with "straight line".

[JPinAZ]

IMHO, you are slapping hand defensively instead of Wck attack the center line offensively target the structure. Your technic is chasing hands

This is one step late and putting one is defensive position. There is no significant effect on the opponent. He is free to do his next attack, while you will be busy trying to defense it . He is in control of the situation.

Never thought I'd say this, but I actually agree with carzy ol hendrik on this. I think it's great that John posts clips to give a better visual of what he's talking about, IMO the video posted, while a totally acceptable defense application, is more out-to-out, chasing hands and pure defensive in nature from a WC perspective.

WC is about simultaneous offense/defense. I didn't see this in the clip as there is no fwd pressure toward center, no fwd connection to your opponent and no 2 hands working as one. 'Protecting center' and 'occupying center with fwd intent' are 2 different things. For it to fit with my understanding of WC's 'out-to-in', you should be going from a place where you have no structure on the A-to-B center to a place where you do occupy A-to-B centerline with structure and fwd intend (simply put). While you are very well going to find instances where you will have to engage with your hands starting at your sides (out) and cannot set up and initial bai jong position (whether you were caught off guard ot chose not to for tactical/strategic reasons) , you should cover the centerline when engaging (in) for it to be WC's out-to-in IMO.

[YouKnowWho]

I didn't see this in the clip as there is no fwd pressure toward center, no fwd connection to your opponent and no 2 hands working as one.

That's not a fair statement. In the following full clip you can see that:

1. no fwd pressure toward center - he takes over his opponent's original position.
2. no fwd connection to your opponent - his right leg springs (connect) his opponent's left leg, and bounce his opponent's left leg off the ground.
3. no 2 hands working as one - his right hand is under his opponent's right shoulder, his left hand is behind his opponent's neck. He use both hands to push his opponent's upper body down.

At the end, he takes over his opponent's position. He "forces" his opponent to have his original position. If that's not "forward pressure" then I don't know what "forward pressure" is.

[Hendrik]

John,

Thanks for the details explaination.

IMHO, what you present is an outer gate play.

You started with your arms away from your center. When your opponent punches at you, you then use double haymakers (Chinese spear technique) that not only deflect (press down) your opponent's punches, it also moves your arms between your opponent's arms (this is the main goal). This way, you can enter his "front door". The effect is shown a bit later.

You may argue, "Why don't you keep your arms in your center to start with?" Sometime you may like to

- use hook punches to hit on the side of your opponent's head.
- open your center, invite your opponent to come in.
- ...

Since your arms are outside and your opponent's arms are inside. By using this strategy, you will have your arms to be inside of your opponent's arms. This is why I call it to "protect your center from outside in".

This is the rest of that clip (still not the whole thing - the rest of the move has nothing to do with this discussion). This is a good example that you use "spiral" to deal with "straight line".

[JPinAZ]

That's not a fair statement. In the following full clip you can see that:

1. no fwd pressure toward center - both of his arms are between his opponent's arms (his opponent's front door),
2. no fwd connection to your opponent - his right leg springs his opponent's left leg back (this destroy his opponent's structure).
3. no 2 hands working as one - his right hand is under his opponent's right shoulder, his left hand is behind his opponent's neck (he can use his left hand to reinforce his right hand if he wants to).

I don't know, I thought it was fair - you posted a clip and asked opinions of whether people thought it represented a a specific WC principle. I gave mine that I didn't think it did and even backed it up with wing chun principle and examples, what's not fair about that? If you think it does, that's fine, not everyone sees WC the same way and everyone is free to have their opinion

to address your points:
1. no, I didn't see what I would call fwd pressure toward/on center, more of a circling and downward motion. You even admitted the haymaker defense techniques were being thrown downward, not fwd. To me, if ignoring not going to center which isn't always mandatory, it looked like only the first part of loi lau hoi sung - just the loi lau. Without going to center and no hoi sung, then it could be viewed as chasing hands.

2. No I didn't see it in those first 2 motions, which was all that were shown in the first clip where you asked the question) I was only referring to the 2 hooking defense technique used against the 2 punches. The rest was not in that clip.

3. again, wasn't in the original clip you asked the question of. But even looking at the longer clip where he enters in on his opponent, from a wing chun perspective I still don't see the things I mentioned in my earlier post.

Again, I think it's cool you are willing to post clips to give a visual of what you're talking about, and it was a nice clip showing a good defensive to offensive application. It just doesn't fit with my understanding of wing chun principle or application.