Wing chun long, medium, or short range sparring?

[kung fu fighter]

In wing chun if you have to chase the opponent in any way, form, or method, you've already lost the wck timing. Regardless of whether you are chasing his hands or chasing his body or feet. You will be at the mercy of the opponent if he is experienced at long fist power generation arts such as CLF MMA or western boxing or close range grappling power generation arts such as wrestling/BJJ and you will always be one step behind on timing reacting and being lead by him instead of being proactive and leading him. The opponent will completely control you timing and distance. In my experience there is no superior art, every art has it's strengths and weaknesses, wck strength is targeting the inner gate centerline and it's weakness is chasing an opponent at long range. Whoever control the distance and timing in a fight can usually play their game and win the fight. Lyoto Machida in UFC is a prime example of this, he has dominated every one of his opponent when his distancing and timing in on point. The only times he has lost is when his opponent was able to control the distance, such as with his fight against shogun Rua.

There is no principle in wck that tells us to ever chase an opponent, this is a modern evolution based on people's interpretation of the art.

[Wayfaring]

In wing chun if you have to chase the opponent in any way, form, or method, you've already lost the wck timing. Regardless of whether you are chasing his hands or chasing his body. You will be at the mercy of the opponent if he is experienced at long fist power generation arts such as CLF MMA or western boxing or close range grappling power generation arts such as wrestling/BJJ.

There is no principle in wck that tells us to ever chase an opponent, this is a modern evolution based on people's interpretation of the art.

Actually when you own centerline you are supposed to pursue and finish. I also think you aren't understanding the concept of chasing hands due to your use of the "chasing body" terminology. The exact opposite of "chasing hands" is "chasing COG (center of gravity)" which actually does reside on the body. WCK action on the bridge is with the intent of affecting COG, or with the intent of affecting the body.

I do like your dramatic mind picture about being at the mercy of your opponent if he is experienced at "long fist power generation arts" such as "MMA or boxing"????? I've never heard any striking instructors in a MMA setting or boxing setting talk about themselves as a "long fist power generation art expert". It kind of sounds like you have a tough time sparring with people from those backgrounds.

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks for the reply,
Which linage of wck are you from?

Actually when you own centerline you are supposed to pursue and finish.

If you truely control the opponent, there is absolutely no need to pursue him, he will not be able to step away. and you will control both distance and timing and always be a step ahead of him in timing. to me real martial arts is all about being skillful at controlling the opponent's timing.

I also think you aren't understanding the concept of chasing hands due to your use of the "chasing body" terminology. The exact opposite of "chasing hands" is "chasing COG (center of gravity)" which actually does reside on the body. WCK action on the bridge is with the intent of affecting COG, or with the intent of affecting the body.

I never chase, if you do, i guarantee you will be exposed by a good fighter. instead I receive what comes,send off what goes, and thrust forward when freed. Try chasing down a pro level boxer with good footwork and then share with us your experience. Imagine trying to chase a Lyoto Machida, what do you think would happen, just ask most of his opponent, they got KOed trying to do just that.

I do like your dramatic mind picture about being at the mercy of your opponent if he is experienced at "long fist power generation arts" such as "MMA or boxing"????? I've never heard any striking instructors in a MMA setting or boxing setting talk about themselves as a "long fist power generation art expert".

Whether they talk about it or not, it doesn't change the way how they generate power.

It kind of sounds like you have a tough time sparring with people from those backgrounds.

Definately not, but only because I have enough experience to know never to chase them lol, however I've seen what happens when other inexperienced wck people chased them during a sparring match. Don't believe me, please check out some of the sparring and fighting clips on youtube when wck fighters go up against other types of fighters and chase them around.

[JPinAZ]

There is no principle in wck that tells us to ever chase an opponent, this is a modern evolution based on people's interpretation of the art.

I'm with Wayfaring and completely disagree with this statement.

WC's concept of Jeui Ying precisely talks about how to chase/pursue a position of advantage over an opponent. The second half of the kuit Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lut Sau Jik Chung also touches on this idea. Of course, from reading your last post, your idea of 'chasing' and mine as it relates to the 2 concepts I just mentioned might be 2 very different things. But in my experience, you very well can chase/pursue a position of advantage when you have it - it's essential to your idea of 'completely controlling your opponent' (which IMO is mostly fantasy as you can never 'completely' control anything..)

[kung fu fighter]

WC's concept of Jeui Ying precisely talks about how to chase/pursue a position of advantage over an opponent.

I assume you are referring to Jui Ying which means facing the shadow, this has nothing to do with running after an opponent to close the gap while he is on the run at long range.

Of course, from reading your last post, your idea of 'chasing' and mine as it relates to the 2 concepts I just mentioned might be 2 very different things. But in my experience, you very well can chase/pursue a position of advantage when you have it

If you truely have a position of advantage, there will be no need to chase/pursue, it's just intercept and check mate, the opponent is completely shut down.

If you don't have the proper timing, you will be forced to chase/pursue by default. Both You and your opponent will be on even playing field, you will not have an advantage. in fact the opponent will have the advantage since you would be fully committed and can't change direction or use your hands/legs to deflect/cover quick enough if he threw something while you are in between strides.

[JPinAZ]

I assume you are referring to Jui Ying which means facing the shadow, this has nothing to do with running after an opponent to close the gap while he is on the run at long range.

This is not what I'm talking about. Maybe we do have different ideas of what the term means? Because that doesn't it match my understanding of the direct translation of the characters. To me it sounds like you talking more about no shape, target shadow - Have shape, target shape?

I'm talking about Jeui Ying as in Dui Ying/Jeui Ying facing concepts. To me, Dui Ying is (simply) about having facing, but no real advantage, where Jeui Ying is about having & keeping facing with a position of advantage - which is what I'm talking about here (and more specifically, HFY's idea of Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying - or Five Battle Formation Face Pursue Shape). When I say chase/pursue a position of advantage, I'm not talking about running after an opponent to close the gap form long to short range. As I specifically said, I'm talking about chasing & pursing (keeping) a position of advantage (ie, not giving it up - maintaining') that you already have.

If you truely have a position of advantage, there will be no need to chase/pursue, it's just intercept and check mate, the opponent is completely shut down.

in an ideal world maybe. While I get what you are saying, I would say the only way someone is 'completely' shut down is if they are sleeping or KO'd Which is why I try not to speak in absolutes.

You may have times where have a momentary position of advantage, but the reality is, the opponent is not really ever 'completely' under your control. They still will try everything they can to regain their balance, COG, position, facing and stop from getting hit - it's a natural survival instinct most people are born with. It's Jeui Ying concept of 'chasing' or 'keeping' this advantage that I'm talking about. What you seem to be saying is, once you get in an advantageous position, you can just strike without the opponent being able to do anything about it? Again, it's a nice goal, but IMO am unrealist ideal of what happens in a fight. I hear this usually from people that don't have a lot of experience sparring/fighting with those resisting opponents outside their school/comfort zone. And not saying you fall into this category, just going by what you've said

If you don't have the proper timing, you will be forced to chase/pursue by default. Both You and your opponent will be on even playing field, you will not have an advantage. in fact the opponent will have the advantage since you would be fully committed and can't change direction or use your hands/legs to deflect/cover quick enough if he threw something while you are in between strides.

Or, you may use pursuit concepts of Jeui Ying to try to MAINTAIN the position of advantage you gained form proper timing and execution of WC strategies/tactics while your opponent has other things in mind

[kung fu fighter]

when I say chase/pursue a position of advantage, I'm not talking about running after an opponent to close the gap form long to short range. As I specifically said, I'm talking about chasing & pursing (keeping) a position of advantage (ie, not giving it up)

Ok, I think i understand what you are referring to, do you mean using your footwork to maintain your wck distance, for example if the opponent takes two steps back, you take two forward?

I have very little understanding of HFY's idea of Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying - or Five Battle Formation Face Pursue Shape. Perhaps you can explain the concept behind this?

I am familar with TWC THE FIVE STAGES OF COMBAT - The Before Contact stage, the Contact Stage, The Exchange Stage, Pursuit, and Retreat. The first three stages are determined by the relative distances between the opponents, whereas pursuit is applicable to any of the first three - and retreat is obviously an act of recovery from an unfavorable position. Furthermore, visuals are used extensively from the non contact stage - while tactile contact reflexes come into play at the contact and exchanges stages. And from the non contact stage the neutral side (body) stance is used a great deal since it shows less target to your opponent provides a very fast lateral side step against a charging opponent (although front stances are sometimes used as well). Nonetheless, the neutral side stance while using.

Is HFY's idea of Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying - or Five Battle Formation Face Pursue Shape similar to this?

You may have times where have a momentary position of advantage, but the reality is, the opponent is not really ever 'completely' under your control. They still will try everything they can to regain position and facing and stop getting hit - it's a natural survival instinct most people are born with.

I agree with this, however wing chun skills should be dynamic not static, where you are constantly adjusting to the opponent's adjustment, so that you are using his reactions against him, the more he reacts the more deeper waters he goes into so to speak. I think it also depends on which system of wing chun one practices as well. You might be thinking one thing, but I might be thinking another due to the different approach of our individual wck perspective.

It's Jeui Ying concept of 'chasing' or 'keeping' this advantage I'm talking about. What you seem to be saying is, once you get in an advantageous position, you can just strike without the opponent being able to do anything about it? Again, it's a nice goal, but IMO a very unrealist ideal of what happens in a fight usually from people that don't have a lot of experience sparring/fighting with those resisting opponents outside their school/comfort zone.

again this depends on skill level! You have to have a very high level of sticking skills as well as being able tp absorb the opponent's incoming force and use it against him in close. If you watched the clip i posted earlier of Emin Boztepe, the opponent would be finished before he had the chance to regain his balance.

[Hendrik]

Navin,

The definition of Facing face and chasing shape ( DUI ying)

朝面追形：
　　与对方朝正面对面者为“朝面”。若不能“朝面”（如对方面向其他方向）我们之面沿着中线平 面追
望对方中线之形者是为“追形”。
　
　
Facing face is facing square face to face.

Tracking the opponent center line is DUI Ying of chasing shape.

Thus, chasing shape or DUI ying is not "chasing " .
Certainly not chasing the opponent with multiple steps .



Ps.

Remember when you are visiting me , you take a solid lower abs strike because you enter thinking I am turning my back and walk away? Even that little chase is trouble, because it leaves many area unguarded .

[kung fu fighter]

Navin,

The definition of Facing face and chasing shape ( DUI ying)

朝面追形：
　　与对方朝正面对面者为“朝面”。若不能“朝面”（如对方面向其他方向）我们之面沿着中线平 面追
望对方中线之形者是为“追形”。
　
　
Facing face is facing square face to face.

Tracking the opponent center line is DUI Ying of chasing shape.

Thus, chasing shape or DUI ying is not "chasing " .
Certainly not chasing the opponent with multiple steps .



Ps.

Remember when you are visiting me , you take a solid lower abs strike because you enter thinking I am turning my back and walk away? Even that little chase is trouble, because it leaves many area unguarded .

Thanks for the clarification Hendrik, this is also in line with my thinking based on my experience of sparring with some of the top professional fighters in Canada.

I definately remembered the solid lower abs strike lol, Mike was like Hendrik can i see that again lol

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the clarification Hendrik, this is also in line with my thinking based on my experience of sparring with some of the top professional fighters in Canada.

I definately remembered the solid lower abs strike lol, Mike was like Hendrik can i see that again lol

Lol

What I use at that time is,

囘身轉去歸心指
"return my body, turning, pointing at your heart."

That is the anti chase set up.

[Daniel Fong]

Lol

What I use at that time is,

囘身轉去歸心指
"return my body, turning, pointing at your heart."

That is the anti chase set up.

Can you have a video to show how it applies in the real fighting situation ? Is there any wck concept with the 'returning the body' ?

Yes, sure it is anti chase. If the chaser is blind, then you can turn safely. However, once you turn, experience chasers move forward to attack, what will happen ? I think yours is on paper tiger only, not realistic. Really understand why people saying Hendrik you are keyboard fighter, paper tiger only.

[kung fu fighter]

Can you have a video to show how it applies in the real fighting situation ? Is there any wck concept with the 'returning the body' ?

Yes, sure it is anti chase. If the chaser is blind, then you can turn safely. However, once you turn, experience chasers move forward to attack, what will happen ? I think yours is on paper tiger only, not realistic. Really understand why people saying Hendrik you are keyboard fighter, paper tiger only.

I've already posted the video of Emin Boztepe demonstrating above.

[Faux Newbie]

Turning would be used when it is advantageous to do so, when it is advantageous to do so, the attack would then be augmented if the opponent charged into it. From my experience.

An experienced chaser is not a habitual one. A habitual chaser is in trouble against a more versatile fighter.

[Vajramusti]

Turning would be used when it is advantageous to do so, when it is advantageous to do so, the attack would then be augmented if the opponent charged into it. From my experience.

An experienced chaser is not a habitual one. A habitual chaser is in trouble against a more versatile fighter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes- best not to be predictable.

[Wayfaring]

Thanks for the reply,
Which linage of wck are you from?

HFY

If you truely control the opponent, there is absolutely no need to pursue him, he will not be able to step away. and you will control both distance and timing and always be a step ahead of him in timing. to me real martial arts is all about being skillful at controlling the opponent's timing.

However, with pressure on the bridge, you never "truly control the opponent". You only control them with pressure for an instant in time. Outside of that instant they are free to move. This is why pursuit is necessary, because you need to chain those instants together.

I never chase, if you do, i guarantee you will be exposed by a good fighter. instead I receive what comes,send off what goes, and thrust forward when freed. Try chasing down a pro level boxer with good footwork and then share with us your experience. Imagine trying to chase a Lyoto Machida, what do you think would happen, just ask most of his opponent, they got KOed trying to do just that.

I don't chase anything. However when I have control over facing and centerline I pursue the opponent with control over their COG and they retreat and try to recover.

Whether they talk about it or not, it doesn't change the way how they generate power.

No, it only shows that you are completely unfamiliar the group of people you are trying to describe, hence your accuracy about them is highly questionable. I mean we can further extrapolate that you probably don't spar against opponents from that group either or you might be more familiar with them. But for now you are simply inaccurate.

Definately not, but only because I have enough experience to know never to chase them lol, however I've seen what happens when other inexperienced wck people chased them during a sparring match. Don't believe me, please check out some of the sparring and fighting clips on youtube when wck fighters go up against other types of fighters and chase them around.

I think what you mean by "chase" is "bull rush in with chain punches down the center and no head movement". I mean if that is the case any reasonably skilled boxer would make a punch miss and tee up on a hook punch and probably get the KO.