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All right knock me over with a feather because I am agreeing with Hendrik here. Did he land an arrow kick on your lower abdomen facing away from you because you were chasing? This is absolutely not what I'm talking about. You would get hit there because you DID NOT CONTROL Hendrik's COG, but tried to pursue like you did.Originally Posted by Hendrik
Chasing hands and pursuit are vastly different. The first is completely against WCK principles, the last is how you finish using WCK principles.
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1. Got nothing to do with kick
2. He can't control my cog because he cannot get hold on it. I strike him when I withdraw and he is attacking in. That is a concept in the part 4 of YKSLT.
3. He is pursuing with a well known Wck technics thinking he got it , not knowing it is a set up, to lead him into blank.
4. It is a yik kam Wck technic, as it says
I am weak he is strong, using the throat sealing. Return my body , turn, point at the heart (center line).
I turn but still strike his center line.
That is to take advantage of his momentum , the sixth core elements. Not fighting with force and control . But disangage, let him come in and take him out .
Last edited by Hendrik; 06-23-2014 at 07:56 AM.
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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1271775]
3. He is pursuing with a well known Wck technics thinking he got it , not knowing it is a set up, to lead him into blank.
4. It is a yik kam Wck technic, as it says
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The idea is not uniquely yk.
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OK. You are baiting him to chase. Drawing him in and changing the angle with center intent. Sure that is common to many WCK and probably some boxers with that strategy and specific tactics to accomplish it as well.
Good to see you share your Yik Kam perspective and understanding on this. IMO this type of discussion is more productive than others.
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Ok, I now understand your perspective as well as JPinAZ's Now, It's seems that HFYWCK uses more of a "pressure on the bridge" approach to control the opponent, So I get why you are referring to momentary control with pressure for an instant, where the opponent is free to move outside of that instant unless you are in pursuit of him to maintain forward pressure. Been there, done that about 20 years ago, so I understand where you guys are coming from. However, I don't use "pressure on the bridge" to control the opponent, so I don't need to Pursue him. My bridge feels like static cling on your bridge, and no matter how much you try to shake it off, you can't get rid of it.
Like I mentioned in one of my earlier post "pressure on the bridge" goes against wing chun principles because you are pushing the opponent away instead of receiving/accepting what comes. One will never be able to do the short strike wck art with this approach because you will never get close enough to be able to apply it.
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OK. You are baiting him to chase. Drawing him in and changing the angle with center intent. Sure that is common to many WCK and probably some boxers with that strategy and specific tactics to accomplish it as well. ------
Sure.
As also in the four point of yik kam six point half pole.
Point four, Return horse pole.
Change my mind, return, middle strike .
Or as it says
Return horse spear , king of spear technic, every spear seal throat, very difficult to guard.
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To be blunt, your assumption about how you think HFY works is completely wrong, as well as your ideas of pressure on the bridge imo, so replying further would be irrelevant.
I will say, thinking you can completely control someone regardless what they do, static cling or otherwise, shows a real lack of understanding about how real fighting works IMO (WC or otherwise). And thinking someone can't 'shake you off' once you get your magical super glue static cling bridge contact is pretty unrealistic in the real world against live resisting opponents.
What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90
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It's seems that HFYWCK uses more of a "pressure on the bridge" approach to control the opponent, So I get why you are referring to momentary control with pressure for an instant, where the opponent is free to move outside of that instant unless you are in pursuit of him to maintain forward pressure.[/QUOTE]
If What i wrote above is incorrect about HFY controlling bridge strategy, please enlighten or educate me on the correct understanding of HFY controlling bridge strategy and why you persue. What i wrote above was based on what Wayfaring explained. After all this is a discussion forum.
You have to feel what i am doing to understand.I will say, thinking you can completely control someone regardless what they do, static cling or otherwise, shows a real lack of understanding about how real fighting works IMO (WC or otherwise). And thinking someone can't 'shake you off' once you get your magical super glue static cling bridge contact is pretty unrealistic in the real world against live resisting opponents.
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Whether "baiting him to chase. Drawing him in" as Wayfaring said, or "lead him into blank" as Hendrik said, do you guys place any emphasis on keeping a loose back (for want of a better expression)?
In this click (from 1:00 onwards) it shows an emphasis on not holding rigidity in the back, but being more spring-like - "relaxed and flexible" as he says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy89Yb2lG9I
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1.
Lead him into blank is a momentum play. A different topic from the video.
2. Imho.as for the video relax and flexible, that is one step slow in timing. Those taiji push hand idea sounds goodbut in real life the spring idea doesnt work well.
3. Imho, One needs to know how to handle the lower three bows. Especially the seventh bow. Otherwise, loose back , relax and flexible doesnt tell much.
Last edited by Hendrik; 06-23-2014 at 12:29 PM.
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I am simply noting that unless you have your hand encircled around the opponents wrist or arm with a tight grip you do not have anything more than control over the bridge at that instant. As many have noted, you have turned that into quite a mistaken concept about how HFY works.
Also, I would really love to see a video of what you are actually doing. Your mental image of what you think you are doing is hilarious. You have no pressure on the bridge? Good, well then I can walk through it and punch you in the nose anytime I want.
Or you are completely misunderstanding what people are saying. Nobody is "pushing the opponent away".Like I mentioned in one of my earlier post "pressure on the bridge" goes against wing chun principles because you are pushing the opponent away instead of receiving/accepting what comes. One will never be able to do the short strike wck art with this approach because you will never get close enough to be able to apply it.
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No, what you wrote was based upon your perception. I really explained none of what you are getting in to. That's all your little world.
Last edited by Wayfaring; 06-23-2014 at 01:03 PM.
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I like that clip. As something comes in, he gets off the line of attack by way of the loose spine, which then, in springing back, supports his counter. A lot of people seem to believe that advantage=pressure, and so they always press in, which becomes very predictable, imo. Advantage can be gained a lot of ways, it's often better to let the opponent fully express their move than simply shut it down.
Additionally, stiff spine gives a good opponent a lot of control over you. If the back is kept rigid, there isn't a part of the body that can't be affected easily. If it is able to spring, as he puts it, and if one has trained how to use this, I think it is highly useful. It often gets confused for being esoteric, when, in fact, perpetual tucking of the tailbone in order to keep one gate open (effectively keeping another perpetually closed) is solely for esoteric reasons, there is no martial advantage to that posture.
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I think in some ways you guys are talking past each other.
For instance, your above quote presumes that pressure on the bridge will prevent what you describe, but pressing won't stop that. What I think he is getting at, from some other things he has said, is that any pressure clues him in on its release, and that release may very well mean that your walking through is actually walking past.
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Not sure about all the mental models going on about this, but definitely the difference in receiving energy at the 1:00 mark from pushing it off (not the energy I'm talking about) to receiving it, isolating it with pressure on the bridge, and returning it with a po pai on a different line (the pressure on the bridge I am talking about is what keeps him from freeing his hand to strike a second time before the po pai). That one section of clip from 1:00 on for about 15 seconds or more show this difference.
But again, what I am focusing in on is someone made a statement about "completely controlling someone" on the bridge. That is incorrect. Control only happens for segments of time, a fact illustrated aptly by looking at ANY of the clips involved.
Last edited by Wayfaring; 06-23-2014 at 01:16 PM.
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