Wing chun long, medium, or short range sparring?

[Faux Newbie]

A great post, as are the others you have made in this thread. Where have you been all my life?

Kansas.

[JPinAZ]

Now you bring the word "style" into discussion. Why restrict yourself as "close range"? If you can use roundhouse kick and haymaker effectively, you have a long range kicking tool as well as a long range punching tool.

Some tools are just so easy to be integrated into your style. You don't even need to learn

- MT to use roundhouse kick, or
- CLF to use haymaker.

Your train of thought only holds water if you ignore WC principles. For example, WC's idea of maximum efficiency.

A person can us any technique they want. And given the POV, most any technique can be labeled as 'effective'. But, if you are fighting with WC's maximum efficiency/effectiveness & economy of motion concepts to drive what you do, then the answer is clear. Rarely do I see a roundhouse kick, spinning back fist or haymaker type of attack that fits these ideals, nor do they really fit within wing chun's centerline principle for starters.

Again, people can do whatever they want, but there comes a point where if you aren't even following even the most basic principles of wing chun, then most likely you are not really 'doing wing chun' (haha, let the flames begin on that last statement)

[JPinAZ]

A great post, as are the others you have made in this thread.

Agreed. I'm enjoy reading Faux Newbie's posts and am glad he's here sharing

[YouKnowWho]

fit within wing chun's centerline principle ..

A + B > A

My teacher was a Chinese wrestling master.

- Onetime he got into a fight in an office, he used his "elbow" to knock his opponents down one by one.
- In another bus station fight, he grabbed a "chair", stood next to the stair, and knock his opponents down one by one when they came down that stair to get him.

In both fights, he did not apply any of his Chinese wrestling principle. Instead, he used "elbow" and "chair".

You fight the way that can help you to get the best result which should not be limited by your "style". If any BJJ guy has to depend on his ground skill in all his fight, he may be killed in his first fight when dealing with multiple opponents.

[JPinAZ]

Again, all sorts of things work. I see your point, but it's not really relevant to what I'm talking about.

[YouKnowWho]

Again, all sorts of things work. I see your point, but it's not really relevant to what I'm talking about.

After you have developed your solid foundation from one system, you should set yourself free and expand from there. If I have stayed all my training in the

- long fist system, I won't be able to learn any grappling skill.
- SC system, I won't be able to learn any striking skill.

Why do I have to restrict myself like that?

In the following clip, you can see the WC

- double Tan Shou principle,
- protect your center from inside out principle.

Is it WC, or is it not WC? If it works, do you care?

[tc101]

A martial art is a technology which based on a concept, platform, and building block similar to an iphone.

It is designed to do what it suppose to do.

Otherwise,

It is like trying to race a car without knowing is it a truck, a bicycle, a ponny cart......etc
it is a superticious believe.

A sparring based on a superticious believe is just a random spray based on blind faith.

That is all wrong. I do not think you know the first thing about real martial art. You always talk analogies or metaphors never about reality because you can't.

How many videos and how many hours of video have you made? In all those hours upon hours how much time showing you using wing chun? Zero. To me that says it all. You don't show because you can't. It is all talk all iPhone race car silliness. You are the ultimate wing chun arm chair idle speculation guy.

JPinAZ said he would visit you and tape where all this information has taken you. Why don't you meet up and do a bit of sparring and show the world how you can handle momentum and other such things that only your original Yik Kam SLT has? How about it? If he is far from you I bet we can take up a collection for his travel. I know I'd contribute. So what do you say? Will you show everyone you are not the fraud we all think you are?

[Hendrik]

Here I reply you once for all.


That is all wrong. I do not think you know the first thing about real martial art. You always talk analogies or metaphors never about reality because you can't.

How many videos and how many hours of video have you made? In all those hours upon hours how much time showing you using wing chun? Zero. To me that says it all. You don't show because you can't. It is all talk all iPhone race car silliness. You are the ultimate wing chun arm chair idle speculation guy.


You are always free to have your view.



JPinAZ said he would visit you and tape where all this information has taken you. Why don't you meet up and do a bit of sparring and show the world how you can handle momentum and other such things that only your original Yik Kam SLT has? How about it? If he is far from you I bet we can take up a collection for his travel. I know I'd contribute. So what do you say? Will you show everyone you are not the fraud we all think you are?



I have been working in depth in realistic martial art with sifu Robert Chu the founder of CSLWCK and many other Wck sifus including Kung fu fighter who starts this threat , since the past decade.

So, thanks but no thanks for your offer. I have no interest.

[YouKnowWho]

to get away from bashing one another and get back to some real productive discussion on training aspects of the wck system.

I believe the OP has no interest in personal argument/attack in this thread. Can we stay that way?

[JPinAZ]

After you have developed your solid foundation from one system, you should set yourself free and expand from there.

If I have stayed all my training in the

- long fist system, I won't be able to learn any grappling skill.
- SC system, I won't be able to learn any striking skill.

Why do I have to restrict myself like that?

I assume when you say 'you should' you are referring to yourself. Besides a more-rounded ground game that involves submissions (of which I'm not totally interested at the moment), I have no issue/restrictions with what I've been training. But that's for sharing your experience. For me, WC has everything I need for a stand up art, with some concepts that translate to the ground.

So we are on the same page and I understand your view more, maybe you could define what Wing Chun means to you?

In the following clip, you can see the WC

- double Tan Shou principle,
- protect your center from inside out principle.

Is it WC, or is it not WC? If it works, do you care?

Is it fair to assume they wouldn't really fight like this (I hope not) and are just demoing an idea? On occasion I've demoed something similar for new students as a way of showing WC triangular theory. I've even had them drill it for 5 or 10 minutes to get the idea, and then I move on. But I surely wouldn't suggest they fight like that.

Just to share my POV, what I see is someone with both arms equally extended and hands locked together - not good from a wc perspective, or any fighting perspective for that matter (imo). From a WC perspective, I there's too much wrong - no 2-line offense/defense, or simultaneous offense/defense, no gate thoery, etc. I personally wouldn't even call that tan sau principle as I understand it. But everyone has a different opinion of things and if this is wing chun to you, I'm not going to argue.
Again, all sorts of things 'work'. But just because it works doesn't necessarily make it WC, even if you use a 'wing chun technique'. And no, I don't really care if it's WC or works or not. If they like it, cool. It's just not something I would do.

[YouKnowWho]

maybe you could define what Wing Chun means to you?

Is it fair to assume they wouldn't really fight like this (I hope not) and are just demoing an idea?

To me, WC are:

- protect center from inside out.
- block and strike at the same time.
- centerline chain punches.

but I don't want to be restricted by the WC principles only. I want to apply principles from other styles too (such as to protect my center from outside in).

I train my guy to fight exactly like this. The "rhino" strategy will change into "octopus" strategy during their opponent's punches.

[Hendrik]

To me, WC are:

- protect center from inside out.
- block and strike at the same time.
- centerline chain punches.

but I don't want to be restricted by the WC principles only. I want to apply principles from other styles too (such as to protect my center from outside in).

I train my guy to fight exactly like this. The "rhino" strategy will change into "octopus" strategy during their opponent's punches.

Great fusion!

Good job!

[JPinAZ]

To me, WC are:

- protect center from inside out.
- block and strike at the same time.
- centerline chain punches.

Thanks for your view. I see we have very different levels of understanding, which is, well , understandable being that WC has been my focus for over 11 years and you have mentioned you haven't studied it very long. So I can see why you may think the way you do.

but I don't want to be restricted by the WC principles only. I want to apply principles from other styles too (such as to protect my center from outside in).

WC has many tools, strategies and tactics for engagement from the out side in (at least mine does). We call defending out-to-in 'going nowhere to somewhere'. WC has methods for when you get surprised when your hands are down to your side as well. I guess it's all in the time you spend in the system.

I train my guy to fight exactly like this. The "rhino" strategy will change into "octopus" strategy during their opponent's punches.

Cool. I wouldn't call this call this wing chun at all, but it looks very usable.

[YouKnowWho]

I see we have very different levels of understanding, which is, well , understandable being that WC has been my focus for over 11 years and you have mentioned you haven't studied it very long. So I can see why you may think the way you do.

You are right! WC is your primary art. You had developed your foundation from WC. I had my foundation developed from the long fist system. WC is only one of my cross training arts. We have different feeling about WC, that's understandable.

[Faux Newbie]

Your train of thought only holds water if you ignore WC principles. For example, WC's idea of maximum efficiency.

A person can us any technique they want. And given the POV, most any technique can be labeled as 'effective'. But, if you are fighting with WC's maximum efficiency/effectiveness & economy of motion concepts to drive what you do, then the answer is clear. Rarely do I see a roundhouse kick, spinning back fist or haymaker type of attack that fits these ideals, nor do they really fit within wing chun's centerline principle for starters.

Again, people can do whatever they want, but there comes a point where if you aren't even following even the most basic principles of wing chun, then most likely you are not really 'doing wing chun' (haha, let the flames begin on that last statement)

I view maximum effectiveness as determined by the combination of the fighters, not the technique of one alone.

I think, in training a system, one does need to train it on its own terms if one seeks to be expert at it.

However, I think that, in fighting, one seeks to survive. In traditional China, I'm willing to bet the originators of Wing Chun, finding themselves in a situation where they needed to fight armed people, and where there were weapons, but not butterfly knives or staffs, would adjust to the situation and not worry so much about authenticity. In fact, many of them likely trained more than one art, as was often common.

The problem with applying the "jack of all trades, master of none" paradigm to people who train martial arts is that fighting is the trade, not bjj or wing chun or longfist or what have you. The amount of common ground is far greater than the differences, especially between Chinese systems. Style is a tool of the trade, not the trade itself, imo.