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Thread: How do you practice the 'shadowless' kick in your wing chun forms?

  1. #1

    How do you practice the 'shadowless' kick in your wing chun forms?

    (Some of you are going to be aware of this already and although I welcome your training tips, for some this will be 'new' and unconsidered. What follows is an account of my training experiences from a few years back and although I have mentioned it in passing before, some new to these forums may find it useful to be repeated and explained more fully)

    One day I attended a private lesson with my previous Sifu and we focused on chum kui and section two in particular.

    In the Ip Man lineage (and others), section two opens by turning to the left with a lan sau, followed by a front kick. Some refer to this kick as dung toi or hay gerk (lifting kick), where as others may practice a different kick that is more thrusting in nature and is commonly referred to as jic gerk or jic tek. I have even seen some practice a side kick.

    For myself I sometimes alternate between practicing dung toi and jic gerk, depending upon what particular aspect I am training that day and although a discussion of the relative merits of each kick is indeed interesting, it was more the role of the lan sau that I brought up for discussion in my session with my previous Sifu.

    I explained to him that increasingly I was beginning to view the forms, that lan sau in section two in particular, not within the context of direct applications but rather in the context of training a skill; the skill in question here was wing chun's 'shadowless kick'.

    By shadowless kick most, and I could be mistaken, are referring to the ability to not telegraph the kick so that the opponent has no visual reference that it is on its way.

    I put it to my previous Sifu that the lan sau, when you look at it when performing the kick, is like a reference rod or stick emanating from the centre of a circle so that when a small movement occurs at the centre, that movement is larger and more noticeable further along the 'rod'. You can notice similar exaggerations and amplifications in movement when practicing the pole form.

    I explained that when my lan sau moves it is because I am exhibiting bad form in my kick; my body may bend forward at the waste, indicated by the lan sau dropping or I may raise in my stance or lean backwards, indicated by my lan sau rising.

    By focusing on keeping the lan sau still, I suggested, I found that I could better develop the ability to not telegraph my front kicks, rendering them 'shadowless' if you will. To my mind back when wing chun was beginning to form as a distinct martial arts style, there was little opportunity to practice in front of a mirror within the cosy confines of a custom kwoon. So, I suggested, it made sense to use the lan sau this way if you wanted to practice not telegraphing your kicks.

    My previous Sifu did me the honour of listening to what I had to say and turned away from me and preceded to walk to the opposite side of the kwoon, to practice the lan sau and kick as I described. After a few repetitions he came back and said to me "thanks for that".

    It could just be the case that he was being nice to me and that this way to train the beginning of section two was commonly known but either way, I thought I would relay my experiences to you in the hope that perhaps some of you may find a positive use for them.

    My question to those more experienced and skilled than I is, how do you practice the 'shadowless kick' in your forms? Also, how do you practice it outside of your forms?

    EDIT: I would add that this is not the only way to train the beginning movements of chum kui and as I have said, it all depends on what I want to develop in a particular training session.
    Last edited by Paddington; 06-14-2014 at 02:44 AM. Reason: spelling, grammar and typos

  2. #2
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    Good post Paddington! I hadn't thought of that section in that way, but it does make sense. There are often multiple benefits for a given movement when you start to really look at them.

    As far as the "shadowless" or "invisible" kicks of Wing Chun, I learned that they are called this for several possible reasons:

    1. A Chinese gentleman wearing the traditional long scholar's shirt/robe would have his legs covered, so any low kick would be difficult to see.
    2. Wing Chun kicks are seldom delivered independent of a hand technique. Typically you will have the opponent's attention focused on defending himself from a strike or extracting himself from a trap AS you kick, so he doesn't see the kick itself.
    3. Wing Chun kicks are seldom delivered from the classical definition of "kicking range", but from much closer in. Again, this makes them hard for the opponent to see coming because they are usually outside the field of his peripheral vision.....especially if #2 is being applied!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Good post Paddington! I hadn't thought of that section in that way, but it does make sense. There are often multiple benefits for a given movement when you start to really look at them.

    As far as the "shadowless" or "invisible" kicks of Wing Chun, I learned that they are called this for several possible reasons:

    1. A Chinese gentleman wearing the traditional long scholar's shirt/robe would have his legs covered, so any low kick would be difficult to see.
    2. Wing Chun kicks are seldom delivered independent of a hand technique. Typically you will have the opponent's attention focused on defending himself from a strike or extracting himself from a trap AS you kick, so he doesn't see the kick itself.
    3. Wing Chun kicks are seldom delivered from the classical definition of "kicking range", but from much closer in. Again, this makes them hard for the opponent to see coming because they are usually outside the field of his peripheral vision.....especially if #2 is being applied!
    Hi KPM. With regards to 1) and 2), particularly if you already had arm to arm contact, my thinking is that practicing keeping the arm still also means the opponent can't read the kick from touch alone. I use this idea quite a bit on the dummy when transitioning so that my opponent can't read by touch. It is hard to do.

    I have used wing chun kicks in sparring contexts and without hand techniques and after discussing with my sparring partner about the session, he did say he found it impossible to read the kicks coming in due to minimal movement in both my body and hence my arms and hands that were in a ready / guard position (non-classical and more mma/boxing hand positions).

    Thanks for the historical note, I did not know that!

    As an aside, it is the type of skill that I describe that I find really drops off quickly when you don't practice it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    Hi KPM. With regards to 1) and 2), particularly if you already had arm to arm contact, my thinking is that practicing keeping the arm still also means the opponent can't read the kick from touch alone. I use this idea quite a bit on the dummy when transitioning so that my opponent can't read by touch. It is hard to do.

    I have used wing chun kicks in sparring contexts and without hand techniques and after discussing with my sparring partner about the session, he did say he found it impossible to read the kicks coming in due to minimal movement in both my body and hence my arms and hands that were in a ready / guard position (non-classical and more mma/boxing hand positions).
    Paddington, back in the early 80s my old sifu changed the way we do the kicks in the second 1/3 of the Chum Kiu form from a front to a side kick. In both versions, the arm on the same side as the kick is held in a Lan Sau position as you described. As you noted in your first post the Lan Sau will wobble and reveal any body sway during kicking. Watching for this is one good way to develop a steady body and non-telegraphic kicks --whether to the front or side.

    On the other hand, I don't worry about keeping an immovable arm when working against an opponent as you mentioned above. Rather I prefer to use that arm actively ...either to strike, parry or to latch ant jerk my opponent into my kick.
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  5. #5
    Thanks for the comment Grumblegeezer, I suspected very much that my thought was not an original one! Could I ask why the change to a side kick was made? I actually find it harder to do a side kick from that position and not to telegraph it, is that one of the reasons?

    I have a question for KPM and also perhaps yourself. When I repeat the turn and lan sau and then kick and drill just that, is that to do san sik?

  6. #6
    I can't speak for Wing Chun but in White Crane we have been told that "all kicks are within the arms" meaning that the kicks themselves are not extended too far beyond the arms reach.
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    We also do our kicks at a 45 degree angle without full extension of the leg and without aligning the standing foot, hip knee and kicking foot in a line like you may see in Karate or Taekwondo.

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    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Minghequan View Post
    I can't speak for Wing Chun but in White Crane we have been told that "all kicks are within the arms" meaning that the kicks themselves are not extended too far beyond the arms reach.


    We also do our kicks at a 45 degree angle without full extension of the leg and without aligning the standing foot, hip knee and kicking foot in a line like you may see in Karate or Taekwondo.
    Thanks Ron. Could I ask where are you making contact with your foot on the opponent?

    The hand positions on the kicks that you perform on the dummy remind me very much of the WSL version of the dummy form as Peterson shows i.e. comparatively close range.

    Another quick question for people, do you use the lower dummy arm to encourage the correct rotation of the knee outwards for forward facing kicks? Of course, if you don't rotate the knee and foot you will collide with the lower dummy arm and this seems to fit with he idea of the dummy being more a protractor or 'mold' to encourage good positioning.
    Last edited by Paddington; 06-15-2014 at 02:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minghequan View Post
    I can't speak for Wing Chun but in White Crane we have been told that "all kicks are within the arms" meaning that the kicks themselves are not extended too far beyond the arms reach.



    We also do our kicks at a 45 degree angle without full extension of the leg and without aligning the standing foot, hip knee and kicking foot in a line like you may see in Karate or Taekwondo.

    ]
    Good points and illustrations Ron! Its the same for my Wing Chun.

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    I actually find it harder to do a side kick from that position and not to telegraph it, is that one of the reasons?

    I agree with you Paddington, and for that reason I don't do a side kick exactly the way I was originally taught it in the Chum Kiu form. Note that you don't do it that way on the dummy either. When I do a side kick I draw the knee up and across my body in a "chamber" position and then throw the kick out at a 45 degree angle in front rather than straight out to the side. "What? You CHAMBER a Wing Chun kick!!??" people may be thinking. Yes! Because that is how I apply it! I typically am not going to do a side kick as a primary technique. It is almost always a follow on to something else. If I do an front oblique kick to one of the opponent's legs followed by a side kick to the other leg, then in the process of turning my leg to angle for the side kick I have essentially done the same "chambering" move. If I have turned the opponent or moved slightly past him and want to side kick to his exposed leg closest to me, then I have to lift my knee to his "chambered" position in order to get the proper angle. If I have pulled the opponent over and hit him with a knee strike that I am going to follow with a side kick to collapse his leg, then I already have my kick in that "chambered" position. Doing it with a straight leg straight out to the side just never made a lot of sense to me. But that's just me.

    I have a question for KPM and also perhaps yourself. When I repeat the turn and lan sau and then kick and drill just that, is that to do san sik?

    As per previous discussions, that depends on how you define "San Sik"!! So let's Just call it a "short set." You can cut out any of the repeated movements from any of the forms and practice them independently as a "short set." Typically doing a short set with 3 movements works best. In this case it would be...Pivot with Lan, kick, step down to Bong. To make it a "modular" approach (as I like to call it) similar to what we do in Pin Sun WCK, you would then develop a way to practice the same movements in application with a partner. And the movements don't have to be exactly the same. You can just be applying the main principle behind what is being done in the form. Next you would figure out how to practice the movements or at least the principle behind them on the dummy, and then how to apply them in Chi Sao, San Sao, or sparring. In the case of the PSWCK Short Sets, we go back at a certain point in the curriculum and work on applying them with the Butterfly Knives as well.


    Another quick question for people, do you use the lower dummy arm to encourage the correct rotation of the knee outwards for forward facing kicks? Of course, if you don't rotate the knee and foot you will collide with the lower dummy arm and this seems to fit with he idea of the dummy being more a protractor or 'mold' to encourage good positioning.


    Not really. If you are doing an oblique kick using the junction of the heel and the arch of the foot as the striking surface, then you just naturally have to angle your knee outward whether the middle arm of the dummy is in your way or not. And if your lineage does a front kick with the ball of the foot as the striking surface, then they middle arm of the dummy is usually short enough that it doesn't get in the way.
    Last edited by KPM; 06-15-2014 at 06:11 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    (Some of you are going to be aware of this already and although I welcome your training tips, for some this will be 'new' and unconsidered. What follows is an account of my training experiences from a few years back and although I have mentioned it in passing before, some new to these forums may find it useful to be repeated and explained more fully)

    One day I attended a private lesson with my previous Sifu and we focused on chum kui and section two in particular.

    In the Ip Man lineage (and others), section two opens by turning to the left with a lan sau, followed by a front kick. Some refer to this kick as dung toi or hay gerk (lifting kick), where as others may practice a different kick that is more thrusting in nature and is commonly referred to as jic gerk or jic tek. I have even seen some practice a side kick.

    For myself I sometimes alternate between practicing dung toi and jic gerk, depending upon what particular aspect I am training that day and although a discussion of the relative merits of each kick is indeed interesting, it was more the role of the lan sau that I brought up for discussion in my session with my previous Sifu.

    I explained to him that increasingly I was beginning to view the forms, that lan sau in section two in particular, not within the context of direct applications but rather in the context of training a skill; the skill in question here was wing chun's 'shadowless kick'.

    By shadowless kick most, and I could be mistaken, are referring to the ability to not telegraph the kick so that the opponent has no visual reference that it is on its way.

    I put it to my previous Sifu that the lan sau, when you look at it when performing the kick, is like a reference rod or stick emanating from the centre of a circle so that when a small movement occurs at the centre, that movement is larger and more noticeable further along the 'rod'. You can notice similar exaggerations and amplifications in movement when practicing the pole form.

    I explained that when my lan sau moves it is because I am exhibiting bad form in my kick; my body may bend forward at the waste, indicated by the lan sau dropping or I may raise in my stance or lean backwards, indicated by my lan sau rising.

    By focusing on keeping the lan sau still, I suggested, I found that I could better develop the ability to not telegraph my front kicks, rendering them 'shadowless' if you will. To my mind back when wing chun was beginning to form as a distinct martial arts style, there was little opportunity to practice in front of a mirror within the cosy confines of a custom kwoon. So, I suggested, it made sense to use the lan sau this way if you wanted to practice not telegraphing your kicks.

    My previous Sifu did me the honour of listening to what I had to say and turned away from me and preceded to walk to the opposite side of the kwoon, to practice the lan sau and kick as I described. After a few repetitions he came back and said to me "thanks for that".

    It could just be the case that he was being nice to me and that this way to train the beginning of section two was commonly known but either way, I thought I would relay my experiences to you in the hope that perhaps some of you may find a positive use for them.

    My question to those more experienced and skilled than I is, how do you practice the 'shadowless kick' in your forms? Also, how do you practice it outside of your forms?

    EDIT: I would add that this is not the only way to train the beginning movements of chum kui and as I have said, it all depends on what I want to develop in a particular training session.
    From a YKS wing chun perspective:

    I was taught that the forms are a physical way or a record used to teach various aspects of wing chun. So how the forms are performed is very very very precise in YKS wing chun. We are told not to mess with the forms. You do the movements a very certain way exactly as taught because there is more to what you are doing than simply the actions themselves. I was taught that there are reasons we do these actions a particular way in that particular sequence in that part of the form and part of that is to provide information that was not obvious and could not simply be gained from looking at the movements. To put it another way there is a sound reason that the forms are done a certain precise way. For an example we do the opening punch a certain way and that is used to encapsulate 15 or 20 points about wing chun. We do the punch a particular way IN THE FORM as a means to practice the action AND teach or reinforce those particular points. Mess with the forms and you mess up what is being conveyed.

    The forms do not teach application.

    I am not saying any form is right or wrong or that how you do it is right or wrong only that the forms are used to teach and record certain things. My view is that when you start interpreting a form all you are really doing is projecting your individual take on to the movements and that is because you were not taught the points encapsulated in the forms. In that way the forms become your own Rorshach instead of a way to pass on certain specific information.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    Could I ask why the change to a side kick was made? I actually find it harder to do a side kick from that position and not to telegraph it, is that one of the reasons?
    My old sifu changed the front kick in that part of the form to a side kick for several reasons. For one thing, Chum Kiu addresses attacks coming from different angles, and in this case from 90 degrees to the side.

    Against such a lateral attack, using the side kick with lan-sau is a faster, more efficient response than first pivoting and then delivering a front kick. The second reason is that the front kick is already present in the next section of the form. So by changing the first pair of front kicks for side kicks, the form now trains all three basic kicking techniques used in our lineage: front kick, side kick, and "slant-thrust kick" (used for attacks from the rear), and in accordingly trains kicking to all directions, front, side and rear.

    Finally, he made these changes in the early 80s after his first research trips behind what was then known as "the bamboo curtain" to Fo'shan where he encountered a greater variety of approaches to WC than he had experienced in Hong Kong. He was one of the first to make such a trip, and I believe the experience broadened his horizons as to what "real" WC was. Unfortunately, his desire to promote his own system and make as much money as possible kept him from speaking openly on these topics ...IMO. And, clearly, he was not alone in this regard.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    From a YKS wing chun perspective:

    I was taught that the forms are a physical way or a record used to teach various aspects of wing chun. So how the forms are performed is very very very precise in YKS wing chun. We are told not to mess with the forms ... Mess with the forms and you mess up what is being conveyed.
    In my experience, most if not all traditional WC masters say the same thing, yet they all have different versions of the forms, and often have made changes themselves. So the implication is that this is advice for the student and the instructors, not the "Master".

    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    The forms do not teach application.
    No, but application can be related to concepts, structures and movements taught in the forms.


    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    I am not saying any form is right or wrong or that how you do it is right or wrong only that the forms are used to teach and record certain things. My view is that when you start interpreting a form all you are really doing is projecting your individual take on to the movements and that is because you were not taught the points encapsulated in the forms. In that way the forms become your own Rorshach instead of a way to pass on certain specific information.
    This is a very interesting way of putting it. But I'm not surge it's entirely a bad thing. Certainly, on a personal level, relating application to the forms helps me as a mnemonic technique. Also, it can be useful in teaching. However, I agree that the forms are not intended to teach application.
    Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 06-15-2014 at 10:26 AM.
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    [...]

    Finally, he made these changes in the early 80s after his first research trips behind what was then known as "the bamboo curtain" to Fo'shan where he encountered a greater variety of approaches to WC than he had experienced in Hong Kong. He was one of the first to make such a trip, and I believe the experience broadened his horizons as to what "real" WC was. Unfortunately, his desire to promote his own system and make as much money as possible kept him from speaking openly on these topics ...IMO. And, clearly, he was not alone in this regard.
    Thanks for saying this bit. I've seen some fascinating videos of kicking techniques from Vietnam and elsewhere in south east Asia purporting to be wing chun. Regardless of the wing chun authenticity, I thought some of the kicking techniques were excellent and they remind me very much of some of the stuff Ron has shared.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    In my experience, most if not all traditional WC masters say the same thing, yet they all have different versions of the forms, and often have made changes themselves. So the implication is that this is advice for the student and the instructors, not the "Master".
    I think this is lineage. Lineage is a specific text book on wing chun. I used the YKS text book and you used a different text book. The information may be arranged different with different emphasis and so forth but the gist of both our text books is pretty much the same I think.

    No, but application can be related to concepts, structures and movements taught in the forms.
    Yes of course all those things are what we use to help us apply the art.

    This is a very interesting way of putting it. But I'm not surge it's entirely a bad thing. Certainly, on a personal level, relating application to the forms helps me as a mnemonic technique. Also, it can be useful in teaching. However, I agree that the forms are not intended to teach application.
    Let's say you teach some absolute beginner the wing chun forms and then had them try to interpret them to explain to you what was being taught by the forms. What would you get? What you would not get would be what for example Sum Nung had meant for you to get from the forms.

  15. #15
    So, tc101, how do you train the 'shadowless' kick or how not to telegraph your kicks, in the forms you have been taught and how you practice them?

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