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Thread: "Hendrik is on to": Deleted? (Zhaoyang Hand)

  1. #1
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    "Hendrik is on to": Deleted? (Zhaoyang Hand)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    4. I have never deleted anything I post.
    He deleted several things from his posts within that thread. Then when he got cornered, the thread mysteriously disappeared!

    So last night, Hendrik is mocking Shaolin as a "fake and copy cat" when I showed that the term Zhaoyang is not unique to White Crane. There is even an entire system consisting of 4 forms bearing the name Zhaoyangquan. But since it was a Qing Dynasty creation, Hendrik accuses Shaolin of "pirating" the term from White Crane. Likely.

    My point was not to suggest connection between Shaolin and White Crane, but just to show that the term is common in TCMA and that it's absurd to claim direct connection between his Wing Chun and White Crane based on a common term. (Remember, this is the only thing GM Lee Kong recognized in his whole kyut, but when he did Hendrik was quick to call it White Crane DNA- a term which GM Lee Kong said is only wishful thinking).

    It's unremarkable for this term to appear elsewhere. After all, there's nothing to say his Wing Chun didn't pirate the term in the same way he accuses Shaolin. He has no information on who taught what to whom, when and where to make any sort of historical claim.

    So on Hendrik goes to mocking irrelevant modern Shaolin, saying they don't even have Chan (presuming he does, but this is not a religious debate). Then he mocks me saying next I'll show some Shaolin McDonald's burger or some sh!t saying it is common in China and proves something, blah, blah, blah. Funny guy.

    Due to Hendrik's arrogance I then give another example of the term "Zhaoyang Hand" used elsewhere in TCMA, and older than his "unique signature of White Crane since the 1650's Qing Dynasty".



    General Qi Jiguang's (1528-1588) book Ji Xiao Xin Shu (纪效新书).

    The term "Zhaoyang Hand" appears in the lyrics for the 32 posture set in Chapter 14 of this Ming Dynasty work. Now how is this a pirating of the "unique signature of White Crane since the 1650's Qing Dynasty" from a hundred years later?

    After leaving this question last night, when I come back on today, wouldn't you know it.... the entire thread is deleted without a trace.

    But I did rub it in by asking him to pull up to the second window for his McWingChun with extra cheeeese!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    He deleted several things from his posts within that thread. Then when he got cornered, the thread mysteriously disappeared!

    So last night, Hendrik is mocking Shaolin as a "fake and copy cat" when I showed that the term Zhaoyang is not unique to White Crane. There is even an entire system consisting of 4 forms bearing the name Zhaoyangquan. But since it was a Qing Dynasty creation, Hendrik accuses Shaolin of "pirating" the term from White Crane. Likely.

    My point was not to suggest connection between Shaolin and White Crane, but just to show that the term is common in TCMA and that it's absurd to claim direct connection between his Wing Chun and White Crane based on a common term. (Remember, this is the only thing GM Lee Kong recognized in his whole kyut, but when he did Hendrik was quick to call it White Crane DNA- a term which GM Lee Kong said is only wishful thinking).

    It's unremarkable for this term to appear elsewhere. After all, there's nothing to say his Wing Chun didn't pirate the term in the same way he accuses Shaolin. He has no information on who taught what to whom, when and where to make any sort of historical claim.

    So on Hendrik goes to mocking irrelevant modern Shaolin, saying they don't even have Chan (presuming he does, but this is not a religious debate). Then he mocks me saying next I'll show some Shaolin McDonald's burger or some sh!t saying it is common in China and proves something, blah, blah, blah. Funny guy.

    Due to Hendrik's arrogance I then give another example of the term "Zhaoyang Hand" used elsewhere in TCMA, and older than his "unique signature of White Crane since the 1650's Qing Dynasty".



    General Qi Jiguang's (1528-1588) book Ji Xiao Xin Shu (纪效新书).

    The term "Zhaoyang Hand" appears in the lyrics for the 32 posture set in Chapter 14 of this Ming Dynasty work. Now how is this a pirating of the "unique signature of White Crane since the 1650's Qing Dynasty" from a hundred years later?

    After leaving this question last night, when I come back on today, wouldn't you know it.... the entire thread is deleted without a trace.

    But I did rub it in by asking him to pull up to the second window for his McWingChun with extra cheeeese!





    1. Nice try from copy cat shongshan shaolin. But a copy cat stuffs or replica.

    See video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcNm...=youtube_gdata

    What is this got to do with SNT of Wck?





    2. Nice try from general Qi Jiguang book. But got nothing to do with it.

    See # 1 picture and writing in the attached photo.
    Sorry you are not even close in Chinese characters recognition .

    What is this got to do with SNT of wck?




    3.

    Y18企掌屈肘單昭陽
    Erect palm bent elbow single zhao yang

    From yik kam SLT kuit clearly describe Fujian white crane DNA.



    As in the Fujian white crane book and Fang Chi Niang statue.

    The term is " single zhao yang" ,
    a very specific term from fujian white crane,

    there are both single an double zhao yang in fujian white crane.
    And in Y18 it clearly says " single zhao yang" with further description " erect palm bent elbow."


    Thus, it is
    Zhao Yang,
    Single
    Erect palm bent elbow .

    Three level depth of detail description and verification .

    See # 2 # 3 and the Fang Chi Niang statue in the attach photo




    4.

    "GM Lee Kong said is only wishful thinking" Is your word, not from Gm Lee kong.
    Stop twisting words and make use of Gm Lee Kong name.




    Gm Lee kong , kong suk , was the person who told me about Zhao Yang is a special term in ancient Fujian White crane in year 2000 in Hong Kong kungfuboard forum. Who gave me the kuit later I share with wingchunpedia and post in wingchunpedia.


    ……..雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成昭陽手,分成三節,肩至肘為內節,肘關節為中節,腕關節為尾節,要做到內節 如鐵一般堅實,與肩身成一整體;………
    圈手入側門,坐節沉肘,肩墮;成昭陽手,手入即身入;不用僵力。
    三) 兩手昭陽、吞吐節力:雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成「昭陽手」,分成三節,肩至肘為內節(根節),肘關節為中節, 腕關節為尾節,要做到內節如鐵一般堅實,與肩身成一整體;中節吞墜,尾節如膠如漆,靈活多變。雙手來去出力 發勁,出手時吐氣(吐),收手時吸氣(吞),一吞一吐互相配合無間,堅持「中門不讓,子午不離」。練習時與 肩、頭、背、胯、膝要貫串一氣,互相呼應,如有橡筋互相牽引、拉扯,吞肩坐節(墜肘),發胛力,勁達指尖。 出手時節中隨身與胯同向,不可縮入開出,手節對膝,承接全身各處之力。


    http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...n=WCP.KuenKuit







    5. Sergio open to public statement :

    Just to make clear to all we have 2 Grandmaster saying that they see Emei and White Crane movements in the Siu Nim Tau set from 1848.

    the last thing we want is to drag respectable grandmasters like GM FU of Emei or GM Lee Kong of Fujian White Crane into a political issue.

    its just a reference for our research nothing more and nothing less,

    GM Fu identified half of the KUIT to be Emei based and GM Lee Kong agreed that the term Zhao Yang in the kuit number 18 is a White Crane term and both saw their respective arts back in the movements of the 1848 set that are the facts nothing more nothing less.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Hendrik; 06-14-2014 at 11:41 PM.

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    Why did you delete the entire thread, Hendrik? I thought you're honest and never do that.

    The characters are codewords if you understand them. What do you think the meaning behind the term Zhaoyang is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    1. Nice try from copy cat shongshan shaolin. But a copy cat stuffs or replica.
    1. Prove that the term was copied by Shaolin.
    2. Prove that the term was not copied by your Wing Chun.

    What is this got to do with SNT of wck?
    You're the only one trying to make a connection based on a term that is common in TCMA. I'm just showing that it's common and that it's stupid to make a historical claim based on it.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Why did you delete the entire thread, Hendrik? I thought you're honest and never do that.

    The characters are codewords if you understand them. What do you think the meaning behind the term Zhaoyang is?


    1. I try to give you face.

    2. Nice try, but you are totally off , be it with shaolin or with general Qi book.

  6. #6
    Oh come on Hendrik!!! Who in the Blue Hell do you think your fooling? Your dealing with some very real and straight up martial artists here! So who in the hell do you think your fooling by removing your threads when they go against you?

    One really simply question for you Hendrik:

    WHY DID YOU REMOVE YOUR THREAD ENTITLED "Hendrik is on to". WHY DID YOU DELETE THIS THREAD HENDRIK?

    As for your ZhaoYang Bull:

    From the "Could fujian white crane sifu help?" Thread started by Hendrik Santo in the Southern Chinese Kung Fu Forum, Hendrik Santo wrote

    Could Fujian White Crane Sifu help on the name of the technique shown in This Fang Chi Niang statue ?
    To which David Williams, himself a Crane Stylist wrote in reply:

    Hi Hendrick,
    I hope this uploads okay. Here is a picture from Ruan Dongs book of Fujian Crane. 'Paizhi', (fingers in a row), or 'flat palm' is a basic hand form in Calling Crane.
    It's not exactly identical (little finger) , but having visited the statue a few times in Yongchung I think it possible that the sculptor be allowed some artistic license in order to make a strong cast....
    Best wishes.
    I draw your attention to the following:

    'Paizhi', (fingers in a row), or 'flat palm' is a basic hand form in Calling Crane.
    It's not exactly identical (little finger) , but having visited the statue a few times in Yongchung I think it possible that the sculptor be allowed some artistic license in order to make a strong cast....


    To which you replied:

    Thanks!

    I have heard, this technic is Zhao Yang , a unque signature of The Fujian White Crane, that is why is shows up in this statue
    Totally ignorant of the fact that David had just written that it was a basic hand form in White Crane and that the sculptor had applied some artistic licence!!!

    Are you thick? Why totally ignore what was written in direct reply to your question???

    The term is " single zhao yang" ,
    a very specific term from fujian white crane,
    Bulls@#t Hendrick! You have no idea of what the term ZhaoYang means when applied to the White Crane Tradition (Which is not Wing Chun). It has a very specific meaning that goes beyond your pi##weak explanation of "Single, Erect palm bent elbow" which means basically nothing other than a rudimentary positioning of the hand.

    Man you are so off the mark, universes away from its real meaning that I really have to laugh at your pitiful attempts at explaining what this means within White Crane Gongfu ... an art you have never trained in!

    Its so funny that you, someone uninitiated in the art of White Crane Gongfu come on here and tell White Crane people what this hand is "supposed to be" when you don't have a clue yourself!

    Otherwise why did you write asking "Could fujian white crane sifu help?" in the Southern Chinese Kung Fu Forum???

    What's the bet that you remove that thread too?

    Hendrik its no wonder no one wants to take you seriously when you cannot even stand by your own words by deleting the threads you start because they don't go your way.

    Seriously pathetic!
    Last edited by Minghequan; 06-15-2014 at 12:03 AM.

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    GM Fu identified half of the KUIT to be Emei based and GM Lee Kong agreed that the term Zhao Yang in the kuit number 18 is a White Crane term and both saw their respective arts back in the movements of the 1848 set
    And I recognize the term from various TCMA perspectives and common hand shapes are found in almost every TCMA. It means nothing.

    Until you answer the essential questions of who taught what to whom, when and where, you are only speculating.

    that are the facts nothing more nothing less.
    Nothing more, until you begin to make historical claims based on someone recognizing one common term.

    Say what you have, but leave the historical claims and speculation out until you answer the essential historical questions. That's the only honest thing to do.

  8. #8
    Since you are the one who bring up shaolin . Show us if it is not a copy cat ?


    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    1. Prove that the term was copied by Shaolin.
    2. Prove that the term was not copied by your Wing Chun.



    You're the only one trying to make a connection based on a term that is common in TCMA. I'm just showing that it's common and that it's stupid to make a historical claim based on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    1. I try to give you face.

    2. Nice try, but you are totally off , be it with shaolin or with general Qi book.
    1. Prove that the term was copied by Shaolin.
    2. Prove that the term was not copied by your Wing Chun.

  10. #10
    Nice try with shaolin and general Qi book.
    Too bad not even close.

    Your are free to think as you like.

    But sorry, no one need your approval for facts.



    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    And I recognize the term from various TCMA perspectives and common hand shapes are found in almost every TCMA. It means nothing.

    Until you answer the essential questions of who taught what to whom, when and where, you are only speculating.



    Nothing more, until you begin to make historical claims based on someone recognizing one common term.

    Say what you have, but leave the historical claims and speculation out until you answer the essential historical questions. That's the only honest thing to do.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Since you are the one who bring up shaolin . Show us if it is not a copy cat ?
    By saying it is a copy cat, you're suggesting some connection... at least that someone from Shaolin went to learn White Crane, and copied only the one term to apply to their unrelated martial art back in Henan.

    You're the only one making ridiculous claims. The burden of proof is on you.

  12. #12
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    Trickster very tricky .

  13. #13
    GM Lee Kong said is only wishful thinking" Is your word, not from Gm Lee kong.
    Stop twisting words and make use of Gm Lee Kong name.
    Hold on a darn minute Hendrik, It was you who started the "Sifu Sergio White Crane Report" Thread that you later deleted in which you quoted Sifu Lee Kong as endorsing Sergio to teach Lee Kong's White Crane.

    This was proved to be a lie.

    It was also you Hendrik that attributed a quote to Sifu Lee Kong on your Wing Chun Facebook which he never said and which could not be found!

    That was also proven!

    Lee Kong told me you are a "Mouse who takes whatever you can and that you should be ignored".

    He also made this request that Sunny So clarify the lies posted in the "Sifu Sergio White Crane Report" thread that you started and then deleted:

    Name:  10453316_10204223028722276_4024993660289860846_n.jpg
Views: 634
Size:  100.2 KB

    Hendrik you are the only one wrongly using Sifu Lee Kong's words and reputation here, twisting them or making them up entirely!!!

    Then you write saying that LFJ should not use or twist Sifu Lee Kong's words ... you are a pathetic hypocrite.

    Seriously Hendrik how can anybody in their right mind believe a single solitary word you say or write when you lie so much and are constantly caught out telling lies?

    WHY DID YOU REMOVE YOUR THREAD ENTITLED "Hendrik is on to". WHY DID YOU DELETE THIS THREAD HENDRIK?
    Last edited by Minghequan; 06-15-2014 at 12:04 AM.

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  14. #14
    What matter is your shaolin and general Qi book are off target.



    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    By saying it is a copy cat, you're suggesting some connection... at least that someone from Shaolin went to learn White Crane, and copied only the one term to apply to their unrelated martial art back in Henan.

    You're the only one making ridiculous claims. The burden of proof is on you.

  15. #15
    Hendrik, I'll also go on record stating that you will also delete this thread in the near future!

    WHY DID YOU REMOVE YOUR THREAD ENTITLED "Hendrik is on to". WHY DID YOU DELETE THIS THREAD HENDRIK?

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

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