Ip Man Wing Chun?

[LFJ]

Uh, alright. To each his own indeed.

[Graham H]

Graham and me watching you two carry on and on and on.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14njUwJUg1I

Lmfao. Yes it's exactly like that!

[Graham H]

Of course you can! When you press, the dummy presses back because it doesn't give way or move. One can press against the dummy to simulate an opponent pressing against you, and then "spring past" to another technique just as you would with a partner. I think that's what Paddington was getting at with his example. The dummy is your one training partner that never gets tired and never complains! You can train a lot things on it outside of the choreographed dummy form. Sure a live partner is better. But the dummy is somewhere between that live partner and a simple heavy bag.

Really? You press the dummy to simulate your opponent pressing against you?

That's right up there with the worst things I've ever heard!

[Graham H]

I think I will leave you guys to it. With ideas like that of Paddington and KPM's floating around it really shows the mess Wing Chun is in.

Cheerio

[Paddington]

I think I will leave you guys to it. With ideas like that of Paddington and KPM's floating around it really shows the mess Wing Chun is in.

Cheerio

How does my body know that I have a free line to attack down? The absence of any pressure or 'arms' or anything else being in the way. That point seems something PB states, and quite a bit.

[BPWT..]

Work on the dummy has many functions, IMO.

It has arms, a trunk and a leg - and they clearly aren't meant to represent the arms of chair, the trunk of an actual tree and the leg of, say, a cow.

We train with it and use Pak, Tan, Bong, etc on it... so I think it can be a "representation" of a person's arms, they body, their leg. If you wanted to train a short sequence of movements, a sequence you might actually use (say, Pak Sau and a strike), then you can, and you can do so in relation to arms and body of an opponent.

That said, the dummy is obviously not an anatomically correct representation of an actual person. It is generally speaking, static... and so the Dummy form is not showing a long sequence you memorise in order to apply it, as-is, in an actual fight.

How could you? You have no idea what your opponent will do - and only an approximate idea of how he'll use his arms (for example); so there are limits to playing around with direct applications from the form's sections.

Of course, you can also use it to train many things and those don't necessarily need to be short sequences for application either.

You can also train it as to tool to improve footwork, to correct angles, to cut lines of attack, to sync your upper and lower body and to work with the dummy using full-body movement, to place emphasis on good/correct elbow position, to train good use of your own leg position, to train ideas about moving around an unmoving/unmovable object (and to do so while retaining brief contact/stick/pressure toward's the dummy's core), wall-mounted dummies with a sprung frame can be useful too in terms of playing with getting power/force into an object... etc, etc.

I think Leung Ting once said that dummy teaches you "where your mistakes are and how to correct them." And I think it was David Peterson who said that WSL indicated the dummy form was about "recovery." Perhaps different ways to describe a similar thing.

Plus, on a hot day you can use the dummy's arms to hang up your sweaty t-shirt.

Multi-purpose object.

By the by, David Peterson said WSL had described to him how Yip Man had altered the dummy form sequence over the years and how Yip Man had various opinions about how certain "movements could be interpreted and applied in combat."

[BPWT..]

I'm sure we've all seen it before... but here's WSL giving a seminar on the wooden dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y

[SKM]

How does my body know that I have a free line to attack down? The absence of any pressure or 'arms' or anything else being in the way. That point seems something PB states, and quite a bit.

This is a valid question. Sensing the window or door of attack takes years of conditioning. By conditioning, I mean using the move itself to condition the body until the neuro-muscular pathways are reenforced to the point that you do not think about the line of attack at a conscious level. Very few people train that way. It is boring and not fun. A good start is to do a specific move ten thousand times. The first ten thousand times is the teacher. The second ten thousand times is the developer. The third ten thousand times is the commander. Repeat process as needed. (Kind of like watching the dryer spin.) If you do five hundred repetitions per day of a given technique, in twenty days you will have done ten thousand repetitions. Pick three different techniques- your strongest (favorite), your weakest, and your most difficult (which could be your weakest also. If so, find a least favorite difficult technique.) Do this for sixty days, find a martial artist from another style to fight (not spar, but fight), and give us a report.

[KPM]

Really? You press the dummy to simulate your opponent pressing against you?

That's right up there with the worst things I've ever heard!

Really? You mean you've never applied pressure with your Bong Sau to create resistance and then "turn the corner" immediately to a Tan Sau as you step into the dummy? You've never done the Pak Sau combo section with varied amounts of force/pressure to simulate meeting a punch coming at you with various amounts of strength or resistance behind them? You've never stepped into the dummy with Po Pai Palms and pressed to simulate putting force into an opponent that isn't moving away from you? Maybe you need to open your mind a little to what can be done with the dummy and not just jump to conclusions as to what is the "worst" thing you've ever heard.

[LFJ]

@Beatrice

Although DP loves to say "my sifu this, my sifu that" and market himself as the blueprint of WSL and gatekeeper of WSLVT, he does not in fact represent the man, and not everyone in this lineage agree with his ideas. If not for his constant reminder of his connection to WSL and the DVDs he made, no one would pay him any attention. He was actually part of the "some" I was referring to that looks at everything as applications.

I think Leung Ting once said that dummy teaches you "where your mistakes are and how to correct them." And I think it was David Peterson who said that WSL indicated the dummy form was about "recovery." Perhaps different ways to describe a similar thing.

Recovery ideas are not about mistakes in posture or whatever. You find positions that need recovery in training with a partner or in fighting. The dummy can't show you such mistakes. It's just a log.

[LFJ]

@Spock

No. We don't stick to the dummy arm with our bong-sau to simulate pressure from an opponent, then spring around it into taan-sau. And if we want to train hitting a human, however they react, we hit humans. The wooden dummy isn't a replacement for when another human isn't around. It's a training tool with a different purpose and place in training.

[GlennR]

Although DP loves to say "my sifu this, my sifu that" and market himself as the blueprint of WSL and gatekeeper of WSLVT, he does not in fact represent the man, and not everyone in this lineage agree with his ideas. If not for his constant reminder of his connection to WSL and the DVDs he made, no one would pay him any attention. He was actually part of the "some" I was referring to that looks at everything as applications.

A realistic description of DP

[BPWT..]

@Beatrice

Nice start, LFJ.

Although DP loves to say "my sifu this, my sifu that" and market himself as the blueprint of WSL and gatekeeper of WSLVT, he does not in fact represent the man, and not everyone in this lineage agree with his ideas. If not for his constant reminder of his connection to WSL and the DVDs he made, no one would pay him any attention. He was actually part of the "some" I was referring to that looks at everything as applications.

Maybe no one person represents WSL. I get that the WSL lineage is fragmented, but I didn't realise people questioned DP so much.

Recovery ideas are not about mistakes in posture or whatever. You find positions that need recovery in training with a partner or in fighting. The dummy can't show you such mistakes. It's just a log.

I think because the dummy is "a log" and fixed, it can highlight a person's spacial mistakes. Move around the dummy through a sequence with, for example, poor elbow positioning and you'll realise that your positioning is poor, IMO. The same would apply to contact with the dummy's arms and poor footwork.

[Graham H]

Really? You mean you've never applied pressure with your Bong Sau to create resistance and then "turn the corner" immediately to a Tan Sau as you step into the dummy?

Nope because that's not the correct way to do it!

You've never done the Pak Sau combo section with varied amounts of force/pressure to simulate meeting a punch coming at you with various amounts of strength or resistance behind them?

Nope because it's not a pak sau combo and that's not the correct way to do it!

You've never stepped into the dummy with Po Pai Palms and pressed to simulate putting force into an opponent that isn't moving away from you?

Nope because that's not the correct way to do it!

Maybe you need to open your mind a little to what can be done with the dummy and not just jump to conclusions as to what is the "worst" thing you've ever heard.

I don't need to open my mind! Your thinking behind the dummy is wrong. Simple as that!

[Graham H]

I get that the WSL lineage is fragmented, but I didn't realise people questioned DP so much.

The WSL lineage is as fragmented as the rest.



...........and BTW the dummy DOES NOT represent a human being!