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Thread: Ip Man Wing Chun?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by nautavac View Post
    Sent you a pm hybridwarrior, thank you for your correspondence
    Anytime. Hope you have some luck. Let us know how it goes...

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    I have a question about Ip Man wing chun for people such as Joy and others with a lot of experience. To what extent are the knives and the way they are integrated into the wider system, a hallmark and key to what people call 'Ip Man wing chun'?
    I would question the idea that the knives are a "hallmark" or "key" to Yip Man Wing Chun...or any Wing Chun method for that matter. The knives are typically seen as an extension of the empty hand method. This is in contrast to a lot of other CMA styles were weapons are a "thing unto themselves." In Pin Sun WCK originally Leung Jan taught no knife form. One simply applied each of the short sets with the knives and explored application from there. I think this likely happened a lot in other WCK methods, which is why everyone's knife form is different. As long as what you do with the knives is in line with the concepts and structure of what you do empty-hand, then the sequence of a form doesn't really matter. The knives follow the empty-hand methods, not the other way around. Therefore I don't see how they would be a "hallmark" or "key" to any Wing Chun system. Typically the knives aren't taught until the end of the curriculum in most lineages. Some don't ever get that far into their Wing Chun. So again, how could the knives be a "hallmark" or "key" to the method?


    Contrast this to the typical Filipino martial art which teaches stick work right from the beginning and bases most of what they do on it. Any empty hand method typically comes later in the curriculum and is an out-growth of the stick method. The stick method itself is usually seen as just a training version of learning to use the blade. So in this case, one could say that the blade is a "hallmark" or "key" to most FMA styles. But this isn't how it works in Wing Chun. So my answer to the question is "not to a very large extent at all!" But that's just my opinion.

  3. #123
    Thanks for the reply KPM. If martial arts such as wing chun formed during periods where weapons were commonly used, to the extent that it made sense to train your weapon use as a priority i.e. 'bringing a fist to a sword fight', then would that mean there may be quite a bit of the empty hand techniques being informed by weapon use rather than the other way around? Of course, I am talking from a historical perspective and I don't know the answer.

    In terms of one version of the knife form I was taught I agree with you, it is akin to a boxer using a small dumbbell weight to enhance their fist striking. That said, in one lineage I have trained through quite a bit of the interpretation for the empty hand forms is seen as preparation for weapons training and conditioning the body for it and here bui jee was often cited as an exemplary form, with respects to body conditioning and preparation for knife work. In this case there seems to be a greater contingency between the empty hand techniques and the knife techniques.

    I must admit, and I know I have said this before so sorry for repetition, I see a lot of sword or blade based principles in wing chun's empty hand movements such as the well known 'flat / edge' distinction as talked about in medieval sword manuals. Nothing definitive, I know, but definitely a line of questioning that peaks my interest and one I should follow up more thoroughly.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    Thanks for the reply KPM. If martial arts such as wing chun formed during periods where weapons were commonly used, to the extent that it made sense to train your weapon use as a priority i.e. 'bringing a fist to a sword fight', then would that mean there may be quite a bit of the empty hand techniques being informed by weapon use rather than the other way around? Of course, I am talking from a historical perspective and I don't know the answer.

    In terms of one version of the knife form I was taught I agree with you, it is akin to a boxer using a small dumbbell weight to enhance their fist striking. That said, in one lineage I have trained through quite a bit of the interpretation for the empty hand forms is seen as preparation for weapons training and conditioning the body for it and here bui jee was often cited as an exemplary form, with respects to body conditioning and preparation for knife work. In this case there seems to be a greater contingency between the empty hand techniques and the knife techniques.

    I must admit, and I know I have said this before so sorry for repetition, I see a lot of sword or blade based principles in wing chun's empty hand movements such as the well known 'flat / edge' distinction as talked about in medieval sword manuals. Nothing definitive, I know, but definitely a line of questioning that peaks my interest and one I should follow up more thoroughly.
    Paddington, between the two knife forms/training you've experienced, would you say one is "better" than the other WRT applicability(?).

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by HybridWarrior View Post
    Paddington, between the two knife forms/training you've experienced, would you say one is "better" than the other WRT applicability(?).
    I've been exposed to more than two forms but I can't say that I am any good at all of them! Could I ask by applicability are you referring to 1) enhancing empty hand techniques in empty hands fighting and self defense or 2) applicability in weapon on weapon scenarios?

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    I've been exposed to more than two forms but I can't say that I am any good at all of them! Could I ask by applicability are you referring to 1) enhancing empty hand techniques in empty hands fighting and self defense or 2) applicability in weapon on weapon scenarios?
    Hmmm....I guess overall I was thinking do the knife form(s) you know seem to "make sense" from both an empty hand perspective as well as with the knives, etc? Are the knife forms you know of the Yip Man variety?
    Put another way: if you were to remove the knives from your hands and then do the form, do you see correlations between the ideas contained in the knives and your empty hand interpretation of Wing Chun?

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by HybridWarrior View Post
    Hmmm....I guess overall I was thinking do the knife form(s) you know seem to "make sense" from both an empty hand perspective as well as with the knives, etc? Are the knife forms you know of the Yip Man variety?
    Put another way: if you were to remove the knives from your hands and then do the form, do you see correlations between the ideas contained in the knives and your empty hand interpretation of Wing Chun?
    Yes two of them are from the Ip Man variety. If I were to remove the knives I see a lot of applicability and correlations in the form taught by Ip Chun, an awful lot. Indeed, when I am doing a knife training session working my form, specifically the one taught by Ip Chun, I always perform it empty handed after performing it with the knives. The loss of mass via not using the knives is very noticeable and enhances my relaxation and fluidity in the movements and my use of fa jing, at the right moments too. What I found really helpful in terms of cementing the correlations and fluidity was then to go work the movements on the dummy. If I were forced to focus on one general aspect that really stood out, it would be that I found learning the knife form really enhanced my ability to attack and go on the offensive in empty hand scenarios.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    Yes two of them are from the Ip Man variety. If I were to remove the knives I see a lot of applicability and correlations in the form taught by Ip Chun, an awful lot. Indeed, when I am doing a knife training session working my form, specifically the one taught by Ip Chun, I always perform it empty handed after performing it with the knives. The loss of mass via not using the knives is very noticeable and enhances my relaxation and fluidity in the movements and my use of fa jing, at the right moments too. What I found really helpful in terms of cementing the correlations and fluidity was then to go work the movements on the dummy. If I were forced to focus on one general aspect that really stood out, it would be that I found learning the knife form really enhanced my ability to attack and go on the offensive in empty hand scenarios.
    Cool...thx for the reply. I don't think I've seen his knife form but appreciate the response!

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    Yes two of them are from the Ip Man variety. If I were to remove the knives I see a lot of applicability and correlations in the form taught by Ip Chun, an awful lot. Indeed, when I am doing a knife training session working my form, specifically the one taught by Ip Chun, I always perform it empty handed after performing it with the knives. The loss of mass via not using the knives is very noticeable and enhances my relaxation and fluidity in the movements and my use of fa jing, at the right moments too. What I found really helpful in terms of cementing the correlations and fluidity was then to go work the movements on the dummy. If I were forced to focus on one general aspect that really stood out, it would be that I found learning the knife form really enhanced my ability to attack and go on the offensive in empty hand scenarios.
    The form taught by Ip Chun is an abomination and not from Ip Man! Fact!
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by HybridWarrior View Post
    Cool...thx for the reply. I don't think I've seen his knife form but appreciate the response!
    Here you go, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE . It is interesting to note that some of his students perform the form differently though the overall pattern remains the same, so I don't know to what extent Ip Chun has changed it over the years.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    The form taught by Ip Chun is an abomination and not from Ip Man! Fact!
    Is it true that Ip Man's sons really didn't train with him that much when he was alive because they had other interests? And it's later in life that they developed an interest in wing chun?

    I've heard that story / rumor but I'm not from an Ip Man lineage so don't have any private stories or perspectives on that.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    Here you go, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE . It is interesting to note that some of his students perform the form differently though the overall pattern remains the same, so I don't know to what extent Ip Chun has changed it over the years.
    Need I say more? Right from the start it is a complete shambles!
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Is it true that Ip Man's sons really didn't train with him that much when he was alive because they had other interests? And it's later in life that they developed an interest in wing chun?

    I've heard that story / rumor but I'm not from an Ip Man lineage so don't have any private stories or perspectives on that.
    No need to discuss rumors. You can see just by watching. If Ip Chun was to use the blades like that he would maim himself not others. Right from the outset its completely incorrect and dangerous!
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  14. #134
    I have seen this in real life several times and listened to his ideas as well. In the days when I didn't know better I believed anything he said...................
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Is it true that Ip Man's sons really didn't train with him that much when he was alive because they had other interests? And it's later in life that they developed an interest in wing chun?
    I've heard that as well...

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