Ip Man Wing Chun?

[BPWT..]

Than lucky strike slap boxing? Yes.

I'm not sure what you mean: in your lineage you don't train Chi Sau in a light way - controlling the strikes? And only punches - no palm strikes or other open-hand movements?

Or do you mean you don't issue strikes with relaxation? Or do you mean you don't make contact when hitting?

Could you post some Chi Sau from HFY lineage to show what you mean?

[BPWT..]

My goodness you're a friendly chap!

Do i need to fly to Hong Kong to train with Leung Ting to experience the true LTWT? Is it different than I have seen on you tube and the like?

As for choosing films I tend to read Empire and Total Film, for a good book I suggest reading amazon reviews and for restaurants I'm not sure that I can help as I don't know where you live. I hope this has help you in some way.

As friendly as I can be reading your posts.

No, you don't need to go to Hong Kong. There are people right here in Europe, if you wanted to experience something to see - rather than to guess at.

Your buddy Graham already pointed out that clips have a limited use (they have some use of course, but hardly the full test for knowing). Hence why I asked if you've actually experienced things, you know?

By the way, I wasn't asking you how you choose films, books or food. I was asking how you judge them. C'mon. If you wanna argue, at least make the effort to read a bit slower

[Rik-M]

As friendly as I can be reading your posts.

No, you don't need to go to Hong Kong. There are people right here in Europe, if you wanted to experience something to see - rather than to guess at.

Your buddy Graham already pointed out that clips have a limited use (they have some use of course, but hardly the full test for knowing). Hence why I asked if you've actually experienced things, you know?

By the way, I wasn't asking you how you choose films, books or food. I was asking how you judge them. C'mon. If you wanna argue, at least make the effort to read a bit slower

I would like to meet with the guys you refer to in your post, are there any in the south west of England?

Unfortunately I had spent the time to read your post, but you seem to have missed the irony in mine.

[BPWT..]

I would like to meet with the guys you refer to in your post, are there any in the south west of England?

The most experienced guys are in Sweden - and I think there is also someone in Finland. But there's some good guys in the Czech Republic too. Also a chap in the Netherlands, but I haven't met him so can't recommend him from personal experience.

There are a few guys in Germany (people who got out of the EWTO when they saw what was happening), but they are really low-profile (have no interest in teaching for money). Also someone in Italy.

If you were to holiday across the pond, there are people in Canada and also someone in California (the latter was a teenager who studied in Yip Man's classes and then learned from Leung Ting after Yip Man retired).

Finding good LTWT is not easy. LT's IWTA organisation is huge (due to the German's: 60,000 students in Germany and Austria) but like I said, IMO this is really not LTWT. The whole teaching method is different. Basic drills, use of the concepts, Chi Sau, Lat Sau, stepping, body method... all with a very different flavour and understanding.

Leung Ting takes the EWTO cut/money... he doesn't seem bothered that the EWTO is what it is. It's sad. But here I have at least one thing in common with Graham. I don't care about 'Associations'. I train with the people who can teach me the system I want to learn. Don't care if they have a connection to LT to this day, or left his organisation years ago. The training and learning is enough for me.

Unfortunately I had spent the time to read your post, but you seem to have missed the irony in mine.

Yes, I guess I missed it. But look, I'm sure you'd agree that before you met with PB or whomever else in the WSL lineage, hearing about them would have only given you an interest. You needed to train and learn from them to 'get it', right? I'm just saying you guys should go easy on the sweeping statements about other lineages (such as Leung Ting's) until you've had the chance to get to know it in person.

[Graham H]

I personally don't care how hard it may be to find LTWT! I just look listen and read things direct from Leung Ting and no need to look any further. Unless of course that is not the real Leung Ting in all those videos, interviews, books and articles.

I also prefer to listen to people who know Leung Ting and have been affected personally by his incessant bullsh1t

[Graham H]

Your buddy Graham already pointed out that clips have a limited

They do have limited use but the LT videos really don't paint a very good picture do they? Apart from in your eyes of course but they are obviously bossed

[BPWT..]

I personally don't care how hard it may be to find LTWT! I just look listen and read things direct from Leung Ting and no need to look any further. Unless of course that is not the real Leung Ting in all those videos, interviews, books and articles.

Well, I never said the guy is perfect! Look past his marketing, his ego sometimes, his interest in money, his need to be in the media, his soundbites and his odd English and odder analogies, LOL. If you met his people, those who really trained with him, you'd see his system is a good system.

I know you won't - that's that, I guess. I have no interested in Leung Ting as Leung Ting, I'm interested in the LT system. You said that you didn't like the bullish!t in Ving Tsun these days, and that you'd rather not be in any association - even He Who Cannot Be Questioned Philipp Bayer and his organisation.

Should I take that mean all WSL VT is bullish!t? Of course not.

I also prefer to listen to people who know Leung Ting and have been affected personally by his incessant bullsh1t

You know people who know him - as in are/were friends with him? Or you know people who learned from him directly? There lives were negatively affected by his... personality?

[Graham H]

Ok so let's discuss LT systems.......

I already know your idea and reason for training Bil Jee is quite different so in you opinion yip man taught both guys differently. Let's just say for a minute he did......so what is your thinking behind Chum Kiu?

[BPWT..]

They do have limited use but the LT videos really don't paint a very good picture do they? Apart from in your eyes of course but they are obviously bossed

There are certainly clips that are not always great. He's a man - not a God.

There are also clips of him faffing about with huge over-sized fake fists - it is Leung Ting's crazy-arse sense of humour through and through. Then there are clips that might look kinda weird, and maybe what he says in English sounds kinda weird... but actually if you know what he was talking about and why, it makes sense (e.g. his jumping up in the air and hitting the guy clip. Dead stupid looking, but if you know what he was actually saying - makes sense).

Then... there is the contact. He's an old guy now, but still... I've been hit by him and he can generate great striking force with little obvious exertion. I've Chi Sau'd with him, and people who have been taught by him, and I've been taught with consideration - but when he/they open up/step things up, I've been off balance, struck and controlled, etc, and you realise that while you're making progress - they have so much more.

Same for the Lat Sau. He/they will enter and in one movement shut you down, hit you and control center.

Nothing extraordinary - I'm sure lots of people from lots of lineages can do such things.

And you know as well as I do, that the good stuff never gets filmed and given away for free. Nothing from LT is ever given away for free

[Graham H]

You are basing his rubbish on his sense of humour? Really?

Leung Ting has no balance? He has no control but if he likes to clown around and make people think he is shocking when really he isn't then he is either very stupid or very clever.

The fact that he can do these things to you is maybe your lack of ability and not his outstanding ability.

[Grumblegeezer]

There are certainly clips that are not always great. He's a man - not a God.

There are also clips of him faffing about with huge over-sized fake fists - it is Leung Ting's crazy-arse sense of humour through and through. Then there are clips that might look kinda weird, and maybe what he says in English sounds kinda weird... but actually if you know what he was talking about and why, it makes sense (e.g. his jumping up in the air and hitting the guy clip. Dead stupid looking, but if you know what he was actually saying - makes sense).

BPWT What you say is true enough. But from the outside, that is to say people who have never trained personally with LT will only see his clownish behavior, the tacky look of his books, etc., and his greedy business schemes. They will not be able to see through that to the unique and sometimes brilliant quality of his kung fu. So there is really no point in arguing.

Now regarding Mr. Kernspecht and the EWTO. Let me begin by saying that I have never met or trained with KK, but way back I had a chance to meet and train with several EWTO instructors here in the States, most notably Emin Boztepe. Also my si-dei and current instructor trained along with me under LT and then later under KK and some of his people in Germany. These people were all very good. Based on that experience, I can tell you that (at least back in the 80s and 90s) some very good WT was coming out of the EWTO.

Also, I remember LT at the time saying that his "German Keith", as he put it, had become very, very good. These remarks were made privately in his hotel room in front of just a couple of us, so I believe he was being sincere. Perhaps things are done differently now in the EWTO? Or perhaps there are political and business differences between Keith Kernspecht's EWTO and Norbert Maday's EEWTO? But either way, I would be hesitant to doubt Mr. Kernspecht's actual ability --as I would equally be hesitant to doubt Mr. Maday's skill.

[Graham H]

So now KK is actually good? BPWT has consistently put bad WT down to KK influence and in the same dialogue praised LT up for being so good and different to KK and the EWTO.

The WT plot thickens so maybe there also many versions of LTWT as well. Does it ring any bells?

[BPWT..]

Ok so let's discuss LT systems... I already know your idea and reason for training Bil Jee is quite different so in you opinion yip man taught both guys differently. Let's just say for a minute he did......so what is your thinking behind Chum Kiu?

Chum Kiu in the LT system?

Obviously it builds on what we learned in SNT. How much do you want me to say… I’m not sure. When I write long posts you just say you don’t read them.

But f*ck it. Okay… CK, for us, is about understanding how to adjust lines for attack, how to turn and rotate and keep the WT body requirements when doing so (we turn differently to you guys in the WSL way, but still, probably we are training for the same goal – rotational force and how we work from the feet to the knee to the hip, etc.)

For us, it is connected to shifting weight too. Again, different to you guys, as we shift through the spectrum of being weighted one side and transitioning through to 50/50, like you guys, and then through to the other side).

The turns and shifts – and steps too – are about understanding the ways we can use Bong Sau, for example. We can use Bong to clear a line, a bit like what (I think) I see in WSL VT, but for us Bong has a redirecting use too – offloading force. Because of the rotation, this is also about how we use the alignment of the shoulders and the hips. Can be used in relation to Bong, but also in elbow striking work too. Used all the time and in lots of ways when training with a partner. Another way to create force (rotation).

In our Lan/Tan/Bong section there a few things at play – but there’s a focus on how we work the Bong to spring forward as we shift and turn, the Bong spiraling – it is related to shoulder/back muscle work as well, but you could maybe say the same thing about SNT’s bong too. Of course, the importance of Bong and Wu together is also worked on.

Balance is a key feature too – not just in the sense of moving and not falling over. But balancing right and left when issuing force. There are up and down movements too, as sinking and rising movements in CK – it is subtle, not huge exaggerated movements, but having studied a little Xingyi, I would recognize these movements as compressing and expanding.

Of course, CK introduces stepping too. For us this is about teaching how to move and keep alignment – how to support the upper body correctly when we’re tracking the opponent’s movements.

Elbow positioning is a key feature too – or maybe it is better to say returning elbow position.

There’s loads more – it’s a form packed full of stuff. Ideas on chasing/pursuing steps; kicks (and knee attacks because of the way we raise the knee first); positional work and alignment work of all kinds; body methods: movement so sink the weight, others to expand the chest… the list goes on.

In terms of general conceptual stuff, I'd probably say CK is linked heavily one of Leung Ting's ideas about force - particularly freeing yourself of your own force. Plus in this form we see a lot one of his "mottos": The arm moves, the body stays still. The body moves, the arm stays still.


This is where you reply and say you won't read all of the above...... even though you asked for it....

[Grumblegeezer]

So now KK is actually good? BPWT has consistently put bad WT down to KK influence and in the same dialogue praised LT up for being so good and different to KK and the EWTO.

The WT plot thickens so maybe there also many versions of LTWT as well. Does it ring any bells?

You are right, you trolling w$nker! Just as there are several different takes on WSL WC. The same goes for most kung fu. Individuality seems to trump uniformity and quality will vary. Now exactly what bells is that supposed to ring?

[Graham H]

No I read it. If it's about technicalities then I'm interested.

So chum Kiu is about bong sau and freeing yourself of your own force? Sinking the weight and expanding the chest?

......and you wonder why I rubbish your ideas all the time?

Let's just say yip man had two sons. In this case Leung Ting and Wong Shun Leung. He taught one child one way and to f""k every bodies head he taught the other one something completely different?

There is no way WSL and Leung Ting were taught by the same person or at least not for any relevant length of time. It's not possible mate. Only in your head which is somewhere between the clouds and Andromeda!