Ip Man Wing Chun?

[Graham H]

..................usually BPWT comes back with a long post.......................

[BPWT..]

Had a meeting - but I was think about you.

[BPWT..]

I was ignorant, convincing myself it worked. I'd try sparring and it looked like a car crash so I would avoid it sticking to pre arranged drills and applications were it looked nice and clean. Maybe saying it was 'useless' was an overstatement for dramatic effect! I was trained to some degree and against certain 'untrained' people I might have been able to do OK. The only way I can compare is if that I was fighting myself what I know now compared to last year (i.e same height, weight, attitude, emotional state) there would be no competition. I now have a fighting strategy, better physical behaviors, an improved elbow position, footwork, balance, timing.

It's difficult to know your on the bad path if your not exposed to anything better or if you are then you don't have the courage to accept it. Fortunately social media has helped people see the truth. I saw Philipps stuff on you tube and thought he is applying his VT against some very handy guys. Not prearranged moves but in Gwoh Sau and sparring.

When I take my car for it's MOT I always get told that there are problems and the brakes need fixing something else and it's going to set me back a small fortune. But I have to take their word for it even though some of it maybe BS. Same with VT if you don't know the truth you tend to stick with what you have.

Well, thanks for being honest. Can I ask, why do you say you didn't have the courage to accept it? Was this down to the time and/or money you'd spent?

Also, you saw footage on youtube of PB sparring? Do you have a link?

[Neil-Y]

Well, thanks for being honest. Can I ask, why do you say you didn't have the courage to accept it? Was this down to the time and/or money you'd spent?

Also, you saw footage on youtube of PB sparring? Do you have a link?

I'm saying some people don't have courage to change. They have put so much time / effort / money into thinking what they were doing is right that they would rather bury their heads in the sand than to think of such a waste. I was like that for many years.

One of my favorite sayings is "in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king"

There are plenty of clips but there is one when he has sparring gloves on.

[Graham H]

Had a meeting - but I was think about you.

I'm flattered but not completely at a loss as to why!

[Frost]

Also, you saw footage on youtube of PB sparring? Do you have a link?

everyone waits with baited breath for the video link........

[Graham H]

Also, you saw footage on youtube of PB sparring? Do you have a link?

There are no video clips of sparring from our lineage. There is a small clip of Philipp having an exchange with Sven (RIP) but that's it and it's only a bit of working out.

If you want an idea of our sparring then the only decent footage is from Michael Kurth who was a long term student of Philipp.

All the sparring footage is not released onto the internet. Only some things to give people an idea of what we do. There are no educational videos and nobody is talking. At best they give the viewer something to persue if he wishes. That's really all the net is useful and even that causes problems because people think that what they are seeing encompasses all we do. It does not.

You have to go and find out for yourself so no BS can get involved.

[BPWT..]

Using the blind fold argument to try and justify that there may be more things I'm not aware of is stupid. The blind fold is a training aid and not really to do with the fighting aspects of the system.

I think it is indicative of how you dismiss things almost on instinct. There are always things we're not aware of. Lots of different approaches to WCK, lots of things that can be of use. There is no one method in WCK that is right to the extent that all others are wrong. I like very much the LTWT system, but I would never say it is the only one worth studying. I acknowledge that you do things differently - I don't think what you do can't work/is wrong. You talk about needing to be open-minded, but I think you're one of the most closed-minded people on the forum.

As for me disagreeing with your ideas behind chi sau and what the forms teach that is a whole different kettle of fish.

Sure. We approach things differently.

When I refer to BS I am specifically talking about the things like Leung Ting shows and teaches. I am also referring to his movements and his overall general systems.

As I've said before, I'd respect your opinion far more if you'd trained in LTWT the way he teaches it in Hong Kong. Even if you'd spend time with someone who had learned the system from him in Hong Kong. We might still disagree about it, but I'd at least know you were talking from experience.

I am also referring to some of YOUR ideas on Ving Tsun.

Yes, my ideas on VT are based only on what I see and read - not from any hands-on training. So whatever my views on VT, they could well be wrong. That said, I'm not sure what you think my views are. I see nothing wrong with the WSL method. Simple and clear looking. If I had any view that might be one you dislike (or maybe like, depending) it would be that I think it is perhaps too simple - very stripped down to the bare bones. Not necessarily a bad thing - but maybe not for me.

Your whole Bil Jee idea for instance and also that you think LT is something he is not. IMO that is what Wing Chun BS is to a T!

I think our Bil Jee forms (Biu Tze) are different. So different body method and different aims and goals inside the training. Again, I am not so arrogant as to say your version is wrong, or Bullsh!t. I think it is different. I think what's inside the LT version is also found in other versions from other lineages... so there is some commonality. Just not with WSL's teachings, I guess.

Regarding what LT is... he's a guy living in Hong Kong. If you have any evidence to prove your point regarding what you think Leung Ting isn't (that he didn't learn much from YM, or that he was never a student of YM, or whatever else you might have claimed and that I missed), just post whatever documents you have that clearly prove any of this.

Ya get me blud? lol

Umm.. I don't know.

[Graham H]

everyone waits with baited breath for the video link........

..............here we go again!

If it were just forms on the net people would want chi sau. Get over it and go to a good teacher of the method. You can spar them then draw conclusions. Nobody has done that on here yet but we are still discussing it after all these years.

Must be because you are scared.

[Graham H]

I think it is indicative of how you dismiss things almost on instinct. There are always things we're not aware of. Lots of different approaches to WCK, lots of things that can be of use. There is no one method in WCK that is right to the extent that all others are wrong. I like very much the LTWT system, but I would never say it is the only one worth studying. I acknowledge that you do things differently - I don't think what you do can't work/is wrong. You talk about needing to be open-minded, but I think you're one of the most closed-minded people on the forum.

Hpw can I be closed minded if I have experienced many other versions of VT you d1ck?

Sure. We approach things differently.

We sure do!

As I've said before, I'd respect your opinion far more if you'd trained in LTWT the way he teaches it in Hong Kong. Even if you'd spend time with someone who had learned the system from him in Hong Kong. We might still disagree about it, but I'd at least know you were talking from experience.

So he has two versions? lol

Yes, my ideas on VT are based only on what I see and read - not from any hands-on training. So whatever my views on VT, they could well be wrong. That said, I'm not sure what you think my views are. I see nothing wrong with the WSL method. Simple and clear looking. If I had any view that might be one you dislike (or maybe like, depending) it would be that I think it is perhaps too simple - very stripped down to the bare bones. Not necessarily a bad thing - but maybe not for me.

....................but as WSL was one of Yip Man's "actual" students then Leung Tings system should have least got simularites wouldn't you agree?

I think our Bil Jee forms (Biu Tze) are different. So different body method and different aims and goals inside the training. Again, I am not so arrogant as to say your version is wrong, or Bullsh!t. I think it is different. I think what's inside the LT version is also found in other versions from other lineages... so there is some commonality. Just not with WSL's teachings, I guess.

Why would LT have one BJ and WSL have another. Go figure FFS!

Regarding what LT is... he's a guy living in Hong Kong. If you have any evidence to prove your point regarding what you think Leung Ting isn't (that he didn't learn much from YM, or that he was never a student of YM, or whatever else you might have claimed and that I missed), just post whatever documents you have that clearly prove any of this.

I wouldn't waste my time with LTWT!

[Frost]

..............here we go again!

If it were just forms on the net people would want chi sau. Get over it and go to a good teacher of the method. You can spar them then draw conclusions. Nobody has done that on here yet but we are still discussing it after all these years.

Must be because you are scared.

Good teacher of the method, like say Kevin??

What we want is actual clips of the art being used against an opponent not
a) his student doing a form of chi sau
b) or a clip where no one is actually making any contact
not much to ask one would think, but then again it does seem to be

I have both done wing chun, and sparred a few wing chun guys who came through the MMA school i spent 10 years at, i cant see the need to try this revolutionary form of wing chun myself because the clips I have seen of it dont really make me go wow lets stop what i am training now and find a teacher for this method, especially the only clip we have of a teacher of said art going at it with someone outside the PB lineage isnt what I would call impressive (even if it was just chi sau )

[Graham H]

Good teacher of the method, like say Kevin??

What we want is actual clips of the art being used against an opponent not
a) his student doing a form of chi sau
b) or a clip where no one is actually making any contact
not much to ask one would think, but then again it does seem to be

I have both done wing chun, and sparred a few wing chun guys who came through the MMA school i spent 10 years at, i cant see the need to try this revolutionary form of wing chun myself because the clips I have seen of it dont really make me go wow lets stop what i am training now and find a teacher for this method, especially the only clip we have of a teacher of said art going at it with someone outside the PB lineage isnt what I would call impressive (even if it was just chi sau )

Dude the system can only be credited for a small percentage of ones fighting ability. The rest is personal. Clips mean nothing.

[BPWT..]

Hpw can I be closed minded if I have experienced many other versions of VT you d1ck?

The versions you've experienced you can give an honest opinion on, I agree (at least if you had some training in their method). You have never had this with LTWT from Hong Kong. So I am saying you're closed minded to rule things out if you haven't had some experience of it.

So he has two versions? lol

The Wing Tsun from the EWTO is not what LT teaches. I can't put it any clearer than that. KK teaches what he does based on his own ideas and well, to be frank, having started teaching when he was really not far into studying. His exposure to HK method is actually rather limited, IMO.

The biggest failing of Leung Ting, is that he doesn't really care about the above, IMO. He knows that what you see in the EWTO is not really the system he teaches. His approach seems to be, meh.

There's only so much you can teach in a seminar. To really learn the system you have to be really training it with a teacher. Perhaps if KK had gone to Hong Kong and spend a few years studying, each and every day, things would be different. But no skin off my nose, I don't learn inside the EWTO. Those guys can do whatever they like.

...but as WSL was one of Yip Man's "actual" students then Leung Tings system should have least got simularites wouldn't you agree?

I would. There are similarities. There are also differences. There are many people who learned from Yip Man, some were with him longer than WSL, or started earlier than WSL, etc. They also have differences to the WSL method. Is it impossible to think that what WSL did was his WCK, his method, his interpretation, based on his knowledge/understanding/exposure to the system, at a particular point in time?

Why would LT have one BJ and WSL have another. Go figure FFS!

They both have forms that follow a fairly similar set sequence. Some of the differences, such has the double-punches, were things YM stopped teaching in Hong Kong (but had taught in Foshan and, I believe, in HK during the earlier years) and LT reintroduced them.

In terms of what is 'inside' the form... who knows why!?! Like you said, there's no time machine for us to go and ask Yip Man why he taught various things to various people. Pretty much everything LT teaches can also be found in other, non-Yip Man lineage WCK, and YM had contact with some of those lineages.

Did YM teach it to LT, or did LT learn some material from the lineages YM had contact with? I have no idea. I know that following YM's death, LT wanted to learn as much about what YM had been taught when he himself was learning. I know that YM saw LT teaching and he doesn't appear to have said, "Nope, little Ting, you're doing it all wrong."

My opinion... WCK can be quite deep, depending on your lineage. Maybe YM taught more to some than others. Maybe he modified what he taught depending on the person he was teaching. WSL got what he needed, LT got what he needed. Today you're happy, and I'm happy too. Bon!

I wouldn't waste my time with LTWT!

And that, Graham, is why you're closed minded. You've ruled it out before you've even experienced it.

[Graham H]

Ok you are right about absolutley everything,

Ciao! xx

[Graham H]

And that, Graham, is why you're closed minded. You've ruled it out before you've even experienced it.

Leung Ting Wing Tsun..............


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sChjlhlOYgA

My mind is shut tighter than a virgins legs!