Ip Man Wing Chun?

[Graham H]

So you don't see the dummy's 'arms' as representing an opponent's arms in any way at all - therefore are you saying you see no correlation between, for example, the height of the dummy's arms and the motions you use when you interact with the dummy?

How many times do I have to say that I don't?

The height of the dummy has to be set up to the height of the person training it. The angle of the two upper arms are at a set angle and a height so that we can train the correct elbow positioning. It is purely for OUR OWN reference and not that of another human being!

And why does the WSL lineage have the dummy's 'leg' as it is - with a bend? Why have that leg facing forward? Why not have it extending out from the dummy from the side, rather than the front?

The "leg" is set up to create a point of contact so that we can develop/improve the synchronicity of the whole body structure. Its not a human leg.

I can't believe that you are that stupid you can't see that! The dummy has no elbow joints. It's upper arms are pointing outwards, the leg is in the center and the thing cannot move! How the f**k can it be a person or relate to a person!?

You ain't stupid (or are you) and you would be heading more in the right direction if you stopped believing in the rubbish LT tells everybody!

[GlennR]

How many times do I have to say that I don't?

The height of the dummy has to be set up to the height of the person training it. The angle of the two upper arms are at a set angle and a height so that we can train the correct elbow positioning. It is purely for OUR OWN reference and not that of another human being!



The "leg" is set up to create a point of contact so that we can develop/improve the synchronicity of the whole body structure. Its not a human leg.

I can't believe that you are that stupid you can't see that! The dummy has no elbow joints. It's upper arms are pointing outwards, the leg is in the center and the thing cannot move! How the f**k can it be a person or relate to a person!?

You ain't stupid (or are you) and you would be heading more in the right direction if you stopped believing in the rubbish LT tells everybody!

Graham could you stop messing around and tell us what you really think

[BPWT..]

You mean having the arms parallel (so I don't train lopsided) or the whole dummy at a particular height for myself (so I don't overreach)?

No, I mean why are the two 'arms' at their general height? Why not head height? Why not lower?

Why have the lower 'arm'?

Do you see no correlation at all between the height of the arms and function/use of what you train on those 'arms' - say Pak and Bong?

You say you don't want to overreach - sure... but overreach to what, when doing what? What are making contact with?

Because we train in front of the dummy.

Sure... .... but you also move from the frontal position and angle in. So why in your lineage do you require the 'leg'? What does it represent to you and why, in your lineage?

Why does the leg have a bend? Technically, it doesn't need to have one - it could be a straight piece of wood angled down.

[Graham H]

.............WSL would always point out that because he was so short most of the dummies (at seminars) he had to demonstrate on were two high for him. He could not use the elbow so had to wrongly use the wrist as the contact reference point.

He would also only show ideas and possibilities but would explain that there is much more to the dummy. One could only understand it if they had the correct idea of SLT and CK.

If the thinking is wrong then the whole system could (and mostly did) go off on a tangent.

To the untrained eye of course people are going to think the dummy represents a human. It's generally called a "wooden man" in most lineages.

I thought the wooden man was reference to a person for 10 years. When I was explained the correct idea I realized how stupid the whole "human" reference was. Of course I did not know any better before.

It really is quite simple to see why the problem has arisen in the first place.

[Graham H]

Graham could you stop messing around and tell us what you really think

Badum tsh............................................... .....

[BPWT..]

The angle of the two upper arms are at a set angle and a height so that we can train the correct elbow positioning.

Correct elbow positioning in relation to what? You are not fighting the air! So what is your reference point?

It is purely for OUR OWN reference and not that of another human being!

This makes no sense at all to me, Graham. Your optimal positioning has to be in relation to more than just you, it has to relate to the function of what you are doing. LFJ talks about not overreaching - again, overreaching in relation to what?

The "leg" is set up to create a point of contact so that we can develop/improve the synchronicity of the whole body structure. Its not a human leg.

You do not need a contact point to do this.

I can't believe that you are that stupid you can't see that! The dummy has no elbow joints. It's upper arms are pointing outwards, the leg is in the center and the thing cannot move! How the f**k can it be a person or relate to a person!?

Graham, what does Muk Yan Jong mean?

[LFJ]

No, I mean why are the two 'arms' at their general height? Why not head height? Why not lower?

Why have the lower 'arm'?

Do you see no correlation at all between the height of the arms and function/use of what you train on those 'arms' - say Pak and Bong?

Graham already explained it to you.

You say you don't want to overreach - sure... but overreach to what, when doing what? What are making contact with?

I'm talking about my own body.

Sure... .... but you also move from the frontal position and angle in. So why in your lineage do you require the 'leg'? What does it represent to you and why, in your lineage?

Again, Graham already explained it to you.

Why does the leg have a bend? Technically, it doesn't need to have one - it could be a straight piece of wood angled down.

For the reason Graham explained.


Obviously, you just don't get it.

[BPWT..]

.............WSL would always point out that because he was so short most of the dummies (at seminars) he had to demonstrate on were two high for him. He could not use the elbow so had to wrongly use the wrist as the contact reference point.

If you can see this, I just don't understand how you can't see what I am meaning.

The dummy was too high for WSL. This meant he couldn't use correct elbow positioning so had to use another part of his arm as a 'contact reference point.'

What was he making contact with? The dummy's arm.
How was he making contact? With, say, Bong or Jut or Pak, etc.
Why does he need correct positioning? Because of the function of Bong or Jut or Pak, etc. (they won't function optimally if they have bad positioning)
Is the function abstract? No, in itself it has a function (Bong or Jut or Pak, etc,. have a purpose)
What is the function? It varies depending on the motion (Bong or Jut or Pak, etc.) but these are all done by making contact with the opponent.
Does the opponent have arms and legs? Yup.
Does the dummy that you train on have representations of arms and legs? Yup

[LFJ]

[Graham H]

If you can see this, I just don't understand how you can't see what I am meaning.

The dummy was too high for WSL. This meant he couldn't use correct elbow positioning so had to use another part of his arm as a 'contact reference point.'

What was he making contact with? The dummy's arm.
How was he making contact? With, say, Bong or Jut or Pak, etc.
Why does he need correct positioning? Because of the function of Bong or Jut or Pak, etc. (they won't function optimally if they have bad positioning)
Is the function abstract? No, in itself it has a function (Bong or Jut or Pak, etc,. have a purpose)
What is the function? It varies depending on the motion (Bong or Jut or Pak, etc.) but these are all done by making contact with the opponent.
Does the opponent have arms and legs? Yup.
Does the dummy that you train on have representations of arms and legs? Yup

You just don't get it do you? It's not possible to educate pork so I'm done with this thread!

I was hoping to make to 108 pages as well

[BPWT..]

I'm talking about my own body.

You can train to not overreach, in this sense, without a dummy. Why do you use a tool that requires contact?

Again, Graham already explained it to you. Graham explained. For the reason Graham explained.Obviously, you just don't get it.

Graham hasn't really explained at all. Graham referenced WSL using a dummy that was too high, but that illustrates what I am saying.

The height of the dummy's arms, if the dummy is set up correctly for you, are the correct height for the use of Tan, Bong, Jut, Pak, etc. Not the use of these things against the air (where you could do whatever you like with no consequence), but the use of them in relation to where they make contact when we engage with an opponent.

There is a lower arm - correct height for the use of Gum and Garn.

There is a leg. It has a bend. Footwork and leg positioning takes note of this... because we do so when dealing with a real opponent.

[BPWT..]

It's not possible to educate pork so I'm done with this thread!

You're free to leave the conversation, but I've noticed you often do this when someone doesn't agree with you and asks further questions. You've given some answers (though I think they need more explanation to make good sense) but you're kinda selective in what you respond to.

[LFJ]

@BPWT - It may be more practical for your dummy that's supposed to model a human to look like this:

[LFJ]

You can train to not overreach, in this sense, without a dummy. Why do you use a tool that requires contact?

It's not a tool to train not overreaching. That's just a reason it's set at a certain height.

Graham hasn't really explained at all.

He explained to you what the arms and leg are for in his post #481. If you can't understand it, then you just can't understand it.

[BPWT..]

It's not a tool to train not overreaching.

Eh? You mean it is a tool to train overreaching.

He explained to you what the arms and leg are for in his post #481. If you can't understand it, then you just can't understand it.

He talked about his own elbow positing as the reason for the height of the arms. I asked him why he needs that elbow positioning in relation to contact with the dummies arms. I even answered it for him, when I said:

"The height of the dummy's arms, if the dummy is set up correctly for you, are the correct height for the use of Tan, Bong, Jut, Pak, etc. Not the use of these things against the air (where you could do whatever you like with no consequence), but the use of them in relation to where they make contact when we engage with an opponent."

When you use Bong or Jut or Pak, LFJ, where do they make contact with the opponent? On what part of the their body?

Their arms.

And still, you see no correlation between the height of the dummy's arms and what you doing to those arms?