Ip Man Wing Chun?

[BPWT..]

BPWT What you say is true enough. But from the outside, that is to say people who have never trained personally with LT will only see his clownish behavior, the tacky look of his books, etc., and his greedy business schemes. They will not be able to see through that to the unique and sometimes brilliant quality of his kung fu. So there is really no point in arguing.

You are probably right. It is pointless to argue with people who haven't experienced something. That said, I suspect Graham and I will be arguing about this in 30 years time when we're old and grey.

Now regarding Mr. Kernspecht and the EWTO. Let me begin by saying that I have never met or trained with KK, but way back I had a chance to meet and train with several EWTO instructors here in the States, most notably Emin Boztepe. Also my si-dei and current instructor trained along with me under LT and then later under KK and some of his people in Germany. These people were all very good. Based on that experience, I can tell you that (at least back in the 80s and 90s) some very good WT was coming out of the EWTO.

I would say that in the late 70s and 80s what was taught in Germany was limited - people there just hadn't had long exposure to the LT system. Most came from KK who had not spent years studying. However... what he taught in the early days was mostly what he had learned, and less his own ideas. Over time, he added in more and more of his own ideas, and spent less real time learning. Emin was all about function. So he took the basics and being hugely talented worked them well. He too had some exposure to Leung Ting. Emin, I would argue, got out before things turned too crazy.

That said, I know numerous people who trained under him - many, many years and many, many private lessons. Some of those guys later went on to learn in Hong Kong or from people trained extensively in HK... and they say things are very, very different.

Also, I remember LT at the time saying that his "German Keith", as he put it, had become very, very good. These remarks were made privately in his hotel room in front of just a couple of us, so I believe he was being sincere.

KK has huge talent. No doubt about it. If he wasn't, he would never have built up the EWTO the way he had. PB has no love of KK, but I think you'd find even he would admit that KK was talent: fast, powerful, good control. Like I said, in the early days the EWTO was kinda hardcore - they trained tough. Then things changed - in a BIG way.

Perhaps things are done differently now in the EWTO?

Being kind, I would say it is different today. Being honest, I would say the EWTO went from being based on LTWT to having become something nothing like it at all.

[Graham H]

You are right, you trolling w$nker! Just as there are several different takes on WSL WC. The same goes for most kung fu. Individuality seems to trump uniformity and quality will vary. Now exactly what bells is that supposed to ring?

You're f88king bell dip sh1t as it goes!

Obviously WT as well or just a chump?

[Graham H]

....and FWIW the reason there are several versions of WSLVT is because of the same reason there's so many versions of yip man vt and also LTWT as it seems now!

[BPWT..]

No I read it. If it's about technicalities then I'm interested.

So chum Kiu is about bong sau and freeing yourself of your own force? Sinking the weight and expanding the chest?

Nope. It is not 'about' these things, I am saying these things are 'a part of it' (in our line). Why would you pick a few points and then base an entire argument around those?

Are you saying that in WSLVT's CK you don't work ideas about Bong and Wu, or about rotation force, or about balance (and balancing forces), or about stepping to track movements?

If not, well... I am surprised. To say the very least.

There is no way WSL and Leung Ting were taught by the same person or at least not for any relevant length of time. It's not possible mate. Only in your head which is somewhere between the clouds and Andromeda!

Well, they were both taught by Yip Man. WSL for longer. Though I have no idea how long... did WSL study with YM in a daily class format? Weekly? A few times per week?

Did he have private lessons daily? Weekly? A few times per week?

I know he started when he was 17 or 18 - and I think WSL was teaching others within a few years. How often was his training with Yip Man (out of interest).

[Graham H]

Nope. It is not 'about' these things, I am saying these things are 'a part of it' (in our line). Why would you pick a few points and then base an entire argument around those?

Make up your mind dude.

Are you saying that in WSLVT's CK you don't work ideas about Bong and Wu, or about rotation force, or about balance (and balancing forces), or about stepping to track movements?

Yes bong sau but do you know why it's performed so many times in chum Kiu? It seems in your lineage it is paramount. The emphasis of these actions Is actually wu sau (the punch position) not bong sau. As for balance that is in all the forms. Tracking movements? No not tracking. Taking the quickest route.

Well, they were both taught by Yip Man. WSL for longer. Though I have no idea how long... did WSL study with YM in a daily class format? Weekly? A few times per week?

Did he have private lessons daily? Weekly? A few times per week?

I know he started when he was 17 or 18 - and I think WSL was teaching others within a few years. How often was his training with Yip Man (out of interest).

We are talking about systems not people now aren't we?

[BPWT..]

@ Grumblegeezer
Also, just to note, recently KK talked about learning from Leung Ting and said he learned from him from 1976 to 2005. It was kinda funny, as he didn't say how often during those periods. I would love to know how often he went to Hong Kong, and how much training he did on those visits.

Leung Ting's trips to Germany were limited, I believe.


@Graham
Why are you now getting all bent out of shape over the variations in WSL VT? It is what it is - WSL taught lots of people, some interpreted things in their own way. You think PB got it all, others might think David Peterson did. Always the Germans are in the thick of it....

[BPWT..]

Make up your mind dude.

Eh? I said there are many, many things in CK. You picked two things that you don't agree with and base that on your being an arsehat.

Yes bong sau but do you know why it's performed so many times in chum Kiu? It seems in your lineage it is paramount. The emphasis of these actions Is actually wu sau (the punch position) not bong sau. As for balance that is in all the forms.

I didn't mention Bong and Wu? And yes, you could say it is the punch position - which would tie in with what I was saying about balance, which would tie in the idea most lineages have "Bong Sau does not remain."

Tracking movements? No not tracking. Taking the quickest route.

Your opponent moves. You take the quickest route. I would say you track the route, but whatever - I think you understand this but again you have convinced yourself not to agree with anything I am writing.

We are talking about systems not people now aren't we?

You mentioned that WSL and LT could not have learned from the same person "at least not for any relevant length of time." You brought it up... so I am asking you if you know how much time WSL spend learning?

Do you know?

[Graham H]

Eh? I said there are many, many things in CK. You picked two things that you don't agree with and base that on your being an arsehat.




I didn't mention Bong and Wu? And yes, you could say it is the punch position - which would tie in with what I was saying about balance, which would tie in the idea most lineages have "Bong Sau does not remain."



Your opponent moves. You take the quickest route. I would say you track the route, but whatever - I think you understand this but again you have convinced yourself not to agree with anything I am writing.




You mentioned that WSL and LT could not have learned from the same person "at least not for any relevant length of time." You brought it up... so I am asking you if you know how much time WSL spend learning?

Do you know?

I think it was three days tops for WSL and three minutes for Leung Ting. Lmfao

[Graham H]

Have a nice evening".........

[BPWT..]

I think it was three days tops for WSL and three minutes for Leung Ting. Lmfao

Why avoid the question? You've already cherry picked regarding the CK explanation.

Do you know how long WSL spent learning with Yip Man? What was the frequency?

(I am sure it was far, far longer than Leung Ting, who had a few hours of lessons and few hours of discussion every week, for about 1.5 years).

[BPWT..]

While I'm asking questions - having written a reply to your CK question - here's two you never bothered to answer before. One from this thread, the other from about a year ago:

1. You know people who know Leung Ting - as in are/were friends with him? Or you know people who learned from him directly? There lives were negatively affected by his... personality?

2. Can you give me the names of those people you said learned the LTWT system in Hong Kong, and who you now say learn the PBVT system in Germany?

[Grumblegeezer]

You're f88king bell dip sh1t as it goes!

Obviously WT as well or just a chump?

For the record, I'm former WT, always a chump! Carry on.

[nautavac]

How widespread is MYVT in the US? IS the moy yat lineage more traditional and centered in Ip Man's training/teaching methods?

[Paddington]

How widespread is MYVT in the US? IS the moy yat lineage more traditional and centered in Ip Man's training/teaching methods?

My Yat made a number of instructional videos and they are available to download, even to a very poor man (hint, hint), if you know where to look. It is hard to say whether Moy Yat's teaching style is more traditional or not than Ip Man's as none of us here have ever had any direct experience with Ip Man! However, having watched those Moy Yat videos I feel more comfortable saying that his teaching style is very technical.

[Graham H]

Why avoid the question? You've already cherry picked regarding the CK explanation.

Do you know how long WSL spent learning with Yip Man? What was the frequency?

(I am sure it was far, far longer than Leung Ting, who had a few hours of lessons and few hours of discussion every week, for about 1.5 years).

Why ask such a stupid question? How do I know how long WSL spent being taught by Yip Man? I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows! Has LT told you something? He is well known for building himself above others.

All I know is that Yip Man was quite old and WSL was quite young and really time spent means nothing. If you are agifted student and have a good relationship with your Teacher then many positive results can come from it. I would guess that Leung Ting was the little runt of the family during his short time there.