Ip Man Wing Chun?

[anerlich]

FWIW, TST and WSL were in Australia on at least one occasion and did some joint seminars together (early 90's from memory)

WSL and William Cheung got on fairly well also. Mind you, not many others got on with the latter.

[BPWT..]

Regaining the upper hand.

If one of the things the dummy form is about is recovery, and you define that as above, then I still don't agree with Graham's previous comment when he said, "The 'limbs'. of the dummy do not represent a human in any way shape or form."

The WC/VT/WT system is about dealing with an opponent. So when you say 'regaining the upper hand' it would mean regaining this against an opponent. Or you could mean regaining your structural/positional upper hand; but again, this has to be in relation to something (you have to gain an upper hand over something particular - you can't gain an upper hand over yourself) and that something has to be the opponent.

So if the dummy is used to train this recovery, how can it not in "any way, shape or form" represent a person? You engage with the dummy's upper and mid-level limbs with your own upper limbs, you step/move around the dummy taking into account its lower (leg) limb, and you strike the dummy too. All as you would with an opponent.

[anerlich]

In fact he felt that the minor errors published in his books (including one co-authored with Yip Chun) were "very clever", since they were like a signature that could be used instantly to tell who had the real training. He pointed out that all the really clever masters (including by inference, Yip Man) did the same. Only a stupid person wouldn't understand this.

This attitude is the main reason why TCMA is losing traction today. That attitude might be good for the instructor's bottom line, but poison for the standard of the art.

Wing chun has definitely gone through a huge surge in popularity and its over commercialisation is half the bloody problem, IMO. Most of the friction and fractures seem to map in a one-to-one fashion onto the social dynamics that operating in a competitive market place encourages. Maybe I overstate the issue of over commercialisation.

Commercialisation on its own isn't the problem. BJJ has been commercialised to all hell, and it's become very much easier rather than more difficult to find top level instruction. The problem is that TCMA guys are selling fake and low quality merchandise and getting away with it.

In TCMA you can pretend you are providing a quality product when you aren't, and perhaps not even realise you aren't, for decades. With BJJ (and MMA, MT, boxing, wrestling) you can find out the truth in a few minutes on the mat.

[anerlich]

In the ancient , a set learning comes with the kuen kuit. Thus, the main key concept and details will be clearly point out. Not up for personal intepretation. Demo or not demo, when one perform the set, one can read the signature of the training via ie : the seven bows, six core elements.

Whether or not one knows the password and the secret handshake means f*ck all if one can't win a fight/match/whatever.

[LFJ]

If one of the things the dummy form is about is recovery, and you define that as above, then I still don't agree with Graham's previous comment when he said, "The 'limbs'. of the dummy do not represent a human in any way shape or form."

They don't.

So if the dummy is used to train this recovery, how can it not in "any way, shape or form" represent a person?

It's a training tool for certain concepts and principles within one's individual development, not some weird model of a human body that we imagine we're practicing applications on.

You engage with the dummy's upper and mid-level limbs with your own upper limbs, you step/move around the dummy taking into account its lower (leg) limb, and you strike the dummy too. All as you would with an opponent.

Maybe as you would.

[GlennR]

1， it is very obvious the form shown in the YouTube is a Ipman lineage form with Ipman signature.

2. In the ancient , a set learning comes with the kuen kuit. Thus, the main key concept and details will be clearly point out. Not up for personal intepretation. Demo or not demo, when one perform the set, one can read the signature of the training via ie : the seven bows, six core elements.

Reading the signature in the seven bows and six core elements handling be able to tell what it is as it is perform.

Yawn..................... yawn........................ yawn

[Graham H]

The dummy form helps, among other things, to teach this idea of contact/pressure and then moving around the 'immovable object'.

In your world perhaps and that's the best place for it!

[Graham H]

then I still don't agree with Graham's previous comment when he said, "The 'limbs'. of the dummy do not represent a human in any way shape or form."

That's good because I think the thinking of the LTWT system is one of the worse. If you started agreeing with me all the time we would have a problem!

[Graham H]

Yawn..................... yawn........................ yawn

I know what you mean......................

[Graham H]

I could write a whole book on why this is all so very bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7QcO0_ulhs

[BPWT..]

It's a training tool for certain concepts and principles within one's individual development, not some weird model of a human body that we imagine we're practicing applications on.

So you don't see the dummy's 'arms' as representing an opponent's arms in any way at all - therefore are you saying you see no correlation between, for example, the height of the dummy's arms and the motions you use when you interact with the dummy?

In your opinion, what is your lineage's rationale behind having the dummy's arms at a particular height?

And why does the WSL lineage have the dummy's 'leg' as it is - with a bend? Why have that leg facing forward? Why not have it extending out from the dummy from the side, rather than the front?

[BPWT..]

I could write a whole book on why this is all so very bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7QcO0_ulhs

Well, Leung Ting has written numerous whole books about why it is good. If you want, I can get you one of those "You Are Wrong" t-shirts.

[LFJ]

So you don't see the dummy's 'arms' as representing an opponent's arms in any way at all - therefore are you saying you see no correlation between, for example, the height of the dummy's arms and the motions you use when you interact with the dummy?

Has nothing to do with imagining it as a human opponent.

In your opinion, what is your lineage's rationale behind having the dummy's arms at a particular height?

You mean having the arms parallel (so I don't train lopsided) or the whole dummy at a particular height for myself (so I don't overreach)?

And why does the WSL lineage have the dummy's 'leg' as it is - with a bend? Why have that leg facing forward? Why not have it extending out from the dummy from the side, rather than the front?

Because we train in front of the dummy.

[HybridWarrior]

You mean having the arms parallel (so I don't train lopsided) or the whole dummy at a particular height for myself (so I don't overreach)?

Well put LFJ

[Graham H]

Well, Leung Ting has written numerous whole books about why it is good.

Comics you mean! lol