Ip Man Wing Chun?

[KPM]

!!! :d :d :d

BPWT wrote:
That's really my point. The forms, including the dummy form, are all about reference points and yes, in relation to our body structure, and also limits connected to actions... I agree... but all of these things (references, structure, limits) are all in relation to something - and that something is the opponent.


Grumblegeezer wrote:
The wooden dummy is obviously an abstraction originally derived from the human form (that originally would have been an opponent or training partner). It is also obviously no longer a human form. Like others LT also said that that it functions as a "protractor" that properly understood allows the practitioner to correct his movements and structure. It teaches many other things too. But to say that it isn't derived from the human form is simply being dogmatic.

That seems perfectly logical to me. And this does not exclude the idea of the dummy representing a tool to help you develop proper lines, angles, not to "overreach" and everything else that you and Graham have stated. But to say that the dummy in NO WAY represents the human form is just silly and dogmatic, as Steve said.

[sanjuro_ronin]

BPWT wrote:
That's really my point. The forms, including the dummy form, are all about reference points and yes, in relation to our body structure, and also limits connected to actions... I agree... but all of these things (references, structure, limits) are all in relation to something - and that something is the opponent.


Grumblegeezer wrote:
The wooden dummy is obviously an abstraction originally derived from the human form (that originally would have been an opponent or training partner). It is also obviously no longer a human form. Like others LT also said that that it functions as a "protractor" that properly understood allows the practitioner to correct his movements and structure. It teaches many other things too. But to say that it isn't derived from the human form is simply being dogmatic.

That seems perfectly logical to me. And this does not exclude the idea of the dummy representing a tool to help you develop proper lines, angles, not to "overreach" and everything else that you and Graham have stated. But to say that the dummy in NO WAY represents the human form is just silly and dogmatic, as Steve said.

I disagree, the reference points are not the opponents, but ours.
The WD is about the positioning and structure of OUR CL, not the "opponents".

[KPM]

Unfortunately I can't really edit or delete or ban based on tone.
I suggest you either ignore Graham ( Lord knows many do) or simply state your case and let him rant, if your case is valid and your points are justified and correct, they will speak volumes louder than any rude tone in opposition.

You can certainly "moderate" how people interact here and encourage them to "play nice." A moderator has more to do that just ban people for racist remarks. Other forums do not tolerate people being rude and insulting towards others. Allowing this behavior and letting it become acceptable is certainly what has lead to the various "flame wars" we have seen here. Sure I and others can just ignore the a55holes like Graham, but why should we have to? This is our forum as well. Why are they allowed to dictate the tone here? I thought a moderator's job was to keep conversations on a civil level and not let them become flame wars simply aimed at bashing someone else's lineage. But maybe I was wrong. But I for one have gotten tired of having to put up with the "a55hole club." I don't think I'm the only one. Just run down the list of people that seldom, if ever, post here anymore. Now I know members of said club are just going to .....again....accuse me of "carrying on" and tell me I need to "harden the fxck up" ..... which is part of the problem. They don't want to be told they have to "play nice." And those that tell them that (short of a moderator) get all kinds of grief.

[LFJ]

But to say that the dummy in NO WAY represents the human form is just silly and dogmatic, as Steve said.

You realize the opposite could be said, right? It's just an opinion, unless you know the guy who designed it and what he had in mind.

What's silly also is to try to convince yourselves or us that we also look at it as a model of a human. We don't, and you, or at least BPWT obviously can't understand why.

[BPWT..]

Again.....+1, but you're making too much logical sense now BPWT.

It is strange logic from LFJ and Graham, IMO. To apply WCK motions and methods when training with the dummy and to think that the dummy's limbs are positioned in a way that doesn't correspond to the correct height of the said method and motions' use/function... well, it is odd.

It's like saying the height of the dummy's upper arms are just coincidently the correct height for usage. That by sheer good luck a pak sau you would use to a partner's arm in training, just happens to also be usable on the arms of a dummy (which, they say, are not actually meant to signify arms at all).

Or that the stepping methods you look to use in partner training just happen to also work well in relation to the leg of the dummy (that is not actually a leg but simply a contact point to use as a reference and help in getting whole body integration of movement).

Just a wonderful coincidence? For me, no. It is by design.

The oddest thing of all, is that when you see video footage of WSL showing the dummy form and then grabbing a partner and illustrating a few sample/possible applications... it clearly shows how the dummy's arms are representative of an opponent's arms.

This is either ignored or, in Graham's case, he says that we should just brush such footage under the carpet and leave it be (or the claim is made that WSL deliberately taught things in seminars that were not what he believed the system to be).

The funny thing is that if you don't think the arms and legs of the dummy are arms and legs, then the pictures they've posted of dummies with multiple bits and bobs sticking out of them would probably better suit their method than mine. If you don't think you're looking at arms, why would you care of there are 20 of them sticking out at random positions and heights?

[KPM]

I disagree, the reference points are not the opponents, but ours.
The WD is about the positioning and structure of OUR CL, not the "opponents".

You are a human being, are you not? You have a human structure, do you not? So even if you just see the dummy as a 3D "mirror" to some extent, isn't it still based on a human being on an abstract level, just as grumblegeezer said?

[LFJ]

@KPM

Seriously, if you can't handle it and stop the whining and carrying on, maybe go to those other forums you think are run better. Either way just drop it already.

[LFJ]

@BPWT

You can either make your way into that PBVT school in your city and figure things out, or just stop trying. Cuz obviously nothing is able to get through to you on here. LTWT ideas have clouded your vision.

[KPM]

@KPM

Seriously, if you can't handle it and stop the whining and carrying on, maybe go to those other forums you think are run better. Either way just drop it already.

Like I said......... SR.....it should seem obvious.....things are not going to change here without a moderator making them change. I don't know how that could be any clearer. And if you want good people to come back, things need to change.

[BPWT..]

@BPWT. You can either make your way into that PBVT school in your city and figure things out, or just stop trying.

Would they also tell me to ignore the footage of WSL giving a seminar on the dummy?

Edit: Did you ever meet WSL? When you did, did he tell you to ignore his seminar footage?

[LFJ]

Would they also tell me to ignore the footage of WSL giving a seminar on the dummy?

They'd likely explain/show things to you so you could understand it clearly.

[Graham H]

I disagree, the reference points are not the opponents, but ours.
The WD is about the positioning and structure of OUR CL, not the "opponents".

Yes that is correct. Its about our own execution, positioning and structure.

As an example the first action on the dummy is a punch. The height and angle of the upper arm corrects our elbow position. The next action is also a punch and the other arm serves the same purpose. We are not hitting another person but paying attention to our own positioning.

The next actions are Jut Saus and depending on which side you are training the upper arm corrects your elbow position and the other jut sau is synchronized with the rotation of the hip. Using the elbow and the hip together training all three together.

The next is Bong/Wu (CK) and the dummy upper arm gives us reference for the elbow position in Bong but this Bong is not how we would apply it in fighting as it drops from top to bottom. Its abstract as the elbow would usually rotate up and forward. Special attention to Wu Sau as your next hit position.

The contact is purely for feedback and our own elbow training.

No point in going on. The non believers will be shouting at the fact I haven't mentioned any other people involved.

[Graham H]

They'd likely explain/show things to you so you could understand it clearly.

Yes but I think that even from somebody who has good knowledge he still would not believe it!

[BPWT..]

They'd likely explain/show things to you so you could understand it clearly.

Okay, but would that contradict WSL's seminar footage? Simple question to answer, LFJ.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can certainly "moderate" how people interact here and encourage them to "play nice." A moderator has more to do that just ban people for racist remarks. Other forums do not tolerate people being rude and insulting towards others. Allowing this behavior and letting it become acceptable is certainly what has lead to the various "flame wars" we have seen here. Sure I and others can just ignore the a55holes like Graham, but why should we have to? This is our forum as well. Why are they allowed to dictate the tone here? I thought a moderator's job was to keep conversations on a civil level and not let them become flame wars simply aimed at bashing someone else's lineage. But maybe I was wrong. But I for one have gotten tired of having to put up with the "a55hole club." I don't think I'm the only one. Just run down the list of people that seldom, if ever, post here anymore. Now I know members of said club are just going to .....again....accuse me of "carrying on" and tell me I need to "harden the fxck up" ..... which is part of the problem. They don't want to be told they have to "play nice." And those that tell them that (short of a moderator) get all kinds of grief.

Yes I understand BUT you need to realize that this has gone on for so long that it is ingrained in this forum and it is going to take a LOT of moderating to do that.
Add to that the issue that many of the more prolific posters ARE the "trouble makers" and how quickly things get out of hand here and you see the issue.
That said, we are working on it, just be patient.