Ip Man Wing Chun?

[BPWT..]

The big problem is that his "dummy" is not fighting back! You can make many Wing Chun actions work with a co-operating partner. Most people have never had a fight in their lives so they are not aware of how much BS floats around in Wing Chun classes. If that guy Chris can hold his opponent and ***** slap him all around the place when the other guy is trying to do the same to him then post a clip of that!

I have some footage from seminars, of Chris doing what you're talking about, with higher grades who are able to respond better - but of course only to a degree. Recorded on my iPhone. I will find some and then ask the guys if they mind me posting it. Maybe they don't mind. If you're doing better at fighting back, the result is still the same - it just prolongs things a second or two longer until you get hit

But the key is not to be 'holding the opponent' in the sense that you've pinned him in some way. It is trapping, for sure, but it is momentary. To be honest, it is not easy to recover from as you're often out of position slightly from the control. The one dominating the exchange is moving from one position/moment of this hit/control method to another, and it happens very fast. In this clip you can see Chris is working the guy, but he's not going in too heavy, and at nothing like full speed. This is just relaxed testing and probing.

Also why always from poon sau? Poon Sau already gives us a hitting distance. The biggest thing in a real fight is getting into that position.

Things are often worked from Poon Sau because it is easier and quicker to teach stuff, or show stuff, with the hitting position/range having already been established. In our Lat Sau work we start from a distance, enter then get to what you see in this clip.

It looks just like flappy arm fest to me and not good thinking for real fights.

It is a strange thing to see, I think, if you haven't felt it. So maybe it seems flappy, which perhaps makes people think it is too loose or unconnected. The movements (arms and upper body) are relaxed and loose in the sense that they are not tight or fixed, but they have pressure towards the opponent's centre.

There is a heavy hitting power that comes with this relaxation and forward force - or what we sometimes call extending force in LTWT. The name is not important, really, but you can hit with force, and with speed, and you're able to change and react quickly because the whole thing is relaxed and flows.

[Graham H]

I have some footage from seminars, of Chris doing what you're talking about, with higher grades who are able to respond better - but of course only to a degree. Recorded on my iPhone. I will find some and then ask the guys if they mind me posting it. Maybe they don't mind. If you're doing better at fighting back, the result is still the same - it just prolongs things a second or two longer until you get hit

But the key is not to be 'holding the opponent' in the sense that you've pinned him in some way. It is trapping, for sure, but it is momentary. To be honest, it is not easy to recover from as you're often out of position slightly from the control. The one dominating the exchange is moving from one position/moment of this hit/control method to another, and it happens very fast. In this clip you can see Chris is working the guy, but he's not going in too heavy, and at nothing like full speed. This is just relaxed testing and probing.



Things are often worked from Poon Sau because it is easier and quicker to teach stuff, or show stuff, with the hitting position/range having already been established. In our Lat Sau work we start from a distance, enter then get to what you see in this clip.



It is a strange thing to see, I think, if you haven't felt it. So maybe it seems flappy, which perhaps makes people think it is too loose or unconnected. The movements (arms and upper body) are relaxed and loose in the sense that they are not tight or fixed, but they have pressure towards the opponent's centre.

There is a heavy hitting power that comes with this relaxation and forward force - or what we sometimes call extending force in LTWT. The name is not important, really, but you can hit with force, and with speed, and you're able to change and react quickly because the whole thing is relaxed and flows.

........................have you actually had any real street fights? Proper ones that include a proper full on assault?

[BPWT..]

Not many. I could count them on one hand. None were life-threatening situations. But I got a good arse-kicking in one. Generally speaking, I think I didn't do too bad when I've had to defend myself. But again, not terribly serious situations.

Things are done and over quick. One beat of what you'd do in training - you can train Chi Sau for hours and a fight won't look like that. You're training for that quick exchange.

[Faux Newbie]

I think one of the things that gets missed in these sorts of conversations is that kung fu styles ALL branch AT VARIOUS POINTS in their history. You look at xing yi, and one branch approaches things from a more striking perspective, another views them from more throwing, and those steps in those branches over time take on traits that support their interpretation.

Every time you pick a starting point as the real deal, you end up finding another era where one branch did exactly the same adjustments that sought to have their interpretation make sense. Even if you go back to the "founding" of a style, you find a ton of elements from kung fu of its day organized and adjusted to support yet another interpretation.

People who insist on there being one method have clearly not spent enough time in the middle of an argument with a group of Chinese people. Every time I read about lineage wars, all I can think of is how Ke was mad at Haifeng, and Hongtao got involved to help smooth things over, but Ke got mad because he wasn't always taking her side, and Mr. Wang got mad at Hongtao because Mr. Wang has a crush on Ke, and the local mayor, who is friends with Mr. Wang and Hongtao had to smooth things over between the two, but it didn't work, but, because all three were part of the same association, whenever they made plans, he had to meet with each of them separately, at which point he would communicate through me, an American, because it was just easier and didn't put him in any particular position. Eventually, this stuff calcifies, and the reason for the dislike gives way to just disliking.That is exactly how interesting Wing Chun politics is.

My own lineage has this horse****. Local silliness that people far away take too seriously. Americans generally don't understand that under the surface of all these arguments, there is often personal stuff, or even awkward stuff. I don't know the reality of YM's opium use, nor do I think it has a strong bearing on what kung fu knowledge he had, but I would say the degree of addiction certainly could make it necessary for an association working with a budget might need to, behind his back, cut off his access to any funds meant for other uses, for his own good and the associations. Or, if he was not an addict, politics could certainly have been an explanation. As for who had access to who as a teacher, a historical approach does not work very well, as what is documented about a local disagreement is almost never going to include basic personality conflicts.

Americans in lineage wars are in way over their heads without a lot of basic knowledge necessary to act. They rarely take their own sifu's personalities and pasts into account, but act as proxies in arguments between Chinese sifus whose social network they are in no way part of, but who their sifus often are. The easiest way to feed this is to then try to make one's approach the only reality.

[KPM]

Not many. I could count them on one hand. None were life-threatening situations. But I got a good arse-kicking in one. Generally speaking, I think I didn't do too bad when I've had to defend myself. But again, not terribly serious situations.

Things are done and over quick. One beat of what you'd do in training - you can train Chi Sau for hours and a fight won't look like that. You're training for that quick exchange.

Yep. You're talking about a combatives scenario, not a sparring scenario or Chi Sao scenario.

[Faux Newbie]

One can train sparring and chi sao, etc, for real situations, as long as they are supplementing that training well.

If your sparring does not make your "realistic" fighting better, that is a bit of a problem. If entries are important, sparring allows lots of practice of them, and realistic practice.

[Paddington]

It is interesting that you raise Ip Man's opium use which is well known and acknowledged. Some say it was due to his 'stomach problems' but his eventual demise due to throat cancer suggests that he was a habitual user for a lot longer. Out of interest, how did his family generate its wealth? If his family was as wealthy as claimed, whose side did they take in the 'opium war'? What type of 'merchants and traders' were they? What were the precise reasons for having to flee? All interesting questions but perhaps not about his kung fu.

[Faux Newbie]

It is interesting that you raise Ip Man's opium use which is well known and acknowledged. Some say it was due to his 'stomach problems' but his eventual demise due to throat cancer suggests that he was a habitual user for a lot longer. Out of interest, how did his family generate its wealth? If his family was as wealthy as claimed, whose side did they take in the 'opium war'? What type of 'merchants and traders' were they? What were the precise reasons for having to flee? All interesting questions but perhaps not about his kung fu.

I mainly raised it because it has come up that he was ousted from an organization. It might have been an act of compassion to do so, only real insiders would know, and few of them are going to complain about his human foibles if they were involved.

[Vajramusti]

I mainly raised it because it has come up that he was ousted from an organization. It might have been an act of compassion to do so, only real insiders would know, and few of them are going to complain about his human foibles if they were involved.

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Idle gossip.

[BPWT..]

It is interesting that you raise Ip Man's opium use which is well known and acknowledged. Some say it was due to his 'stomach problems' but his eventual demise due to throat cancer suggests that he was a habitual user for a lot longer. Out of interest, how did his family generate its wealth? If his family was as wealthy as claimed, whose side did they take in the 'opium war'? What type of 'merchants and traders' were they? What were the precise reasons for having to flee? All interesting questions but perhaps not about his kung fu.

I never heard that he was a serious drug user - I heard it was more, well, a spell he went through. I think the throat cancer was more to do with the Camels he smoked.

Also, I always thought his family were land owners/property owners - but I can't remember where I heard that, so maybe it's not true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Opium and Chinese MA masters go hand-in-hand like hookers and western gunfighters.

[Paddington]

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Idle gossip.

Unfortunately with all people that become of 'historical note' gossip and speculation becomes abundant; the nature of the beast and fame in general.

[Paddington]

Opium and Chinese MA masters go hand-in-hand like hookers and western gunfighters.

This question is a bit off topic but which masters of note would you cite as being opium users?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This question is a bit off topic but which masters of note would you cite as being opium users?

Officially? None.
Opium was part of the culture up until and after the opium wars.
I knew of a couple personally that still smoked opium, again it was as part of their culture as drinking a beer at the pub is for the English or perhaps more fittingly, what tabaco smoking was up until the 90's.

[Jimbo]

It is interesting that you raise Ip Man's opium use which is well known and acknowledged. Some say it was due to his 'stomach problems' but his eventual demise due to throat cancer suggests that he was a habitual user for a lot longer.

It's every bit as likely that was due to cigarettes. When I lived in Taiwan at least, smoking was very common among a number of CMA teachers and their students. Many of them don't consider smoking to be unhealthy. The first CMA teacher I had there would often teach with a cigarette hanging from his mouth, and the senior students would sometimes take puffs of their cigs during class. Not a healthy environment, even for a nonsmoker. Which was only one of the reasons he was only my first, but not my last, CMA teacher in Taiwan.