To kick the Opium habit he started smoking cigarettes. That's more likely than opium to have caused his cancer.Originally Posted by Paddington
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To kick the Opium habit he started smoking cigarettes. That's more likely than opium to have caused his cancer.
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This is sort of my point. The odds of there being one person on here who knows how much opium he used are pretty much zero. It's not something one advertises, even to close associates, none of whom are here.
So it's all idle speculation by strangers. No matter who your teacher is.
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Pretty much like the "Ip Man Wing Chun" everybody thinks they are practicing.
"Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"
Wong Shun Leung.
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Impossible.
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It doesn't work simply because people like you are incapable of carrying on a civil discussion without resorting to insulting and disrespectful posting. Reading through this thread one can clearly see where BPWT has done his best to keep his end of the conversation on a civil tone while you have not. It doesn't matter whether two people have conflicting ideas. Any conversation can be production if the people participating make an effort to actually converse and not insult. Its as simple as that. Human interaction 101. Being an a55hole seldom leads to any kind of productive discussion. Just go back through this thread alone and count how many of your responses and comments have "a55hole" written all over them. Oh..forget that. I'm sure you won't see that at all. But I assure you others do. But I'm also sure that you don't care and don't see it as a problem.
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Really, who cares? Surely you can sift through his tone and see what he's saying or what his opinion is. You guys could choose to respond to the message rather than the tone of it. If you make a big deal out of that aspect, it becomes a big deal.
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I for one care. The disruption is intentional, asinine and juvenile and has driven people away already. I know this to be true because some of them have contacted me and told me the reasons why they do not contribute to these boards anymore. It is the same people time and time again causing the issues.
I agree with your sentiments KPM. The people causing all the antagonisms often focus on the differences between lineages rather than the commonalities.
Take the case of the dummy form, for example, where people form the WSL lineage, through Phillip Bayer in particular, have directed much derision at, say, the form as taught by people like Shaun Rawcliffe. Having engaged in lengthy email conversations about the dummy form with some of PB's students the idea of the dummy as a 'protractor' or a tool to 'mold' good form was really emphasised.
Well, on page 21 of Rawcliffe's book 'Wing Chun Kung Fu; The Wooden Dummy', Shaun presents a photostat of his notes from the period he spent at Ip Chun's flat learning the dummy form and in those notes it states "The dummy should be considered a 3D focusing tool, which acts as a template for 'perfect' positions and structures. It serves as a structural protractor to define optimum angle to movement around and distance from the dummy".
This is very similar to the attitude towards the dummy that PB's students have articulated to me and rather than focusing on this shared attitude, some of his students that post here choose instead to look at just differences and in a way that is demeaning, conflictual and not constructive. Most of us realise the futility in instigating lineage vs lineage debates that focus solely on differences and positioning one lineage as superior to or greater than, another. It is just a shame that certain people have yet to learn this lesson. In my opinion until that lesson is learnt one's development becomes severely limited to the extent that those that can help you further along the wing chun path, will just avoid you at all costs.
Last edited by Paddington; 07-04-2014 at 12:28 PM.
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If we stay silent and say nothing then this becomes acceptable behavior. I don't think it should be. This is NOT acceptable behavior in any other form of polite society. Why should it be here? I'll bet Graham doesn't interact this way with people he works with every day. I'll bet Graham doesn't interact this way with people he converses with in public places when he is out shopping, at a restaurant, etc. So why does he feel its acceptable to interact like this here in the forum? And his students evidently have gotten the same message that it is acceptable to act this way in the forum. THAT is why we have so many problems here.....because we stand by and allow it.
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It's not that they focus on differences, but the way they deprecate any approach other than their own.
Personally, I find the differences between lineages fascinating. And I don't mind people subjecting techniques to critical analysis. Such discussions can be productive if carried out in a respectful manner.
On the other hand, since certain individuals persist in being Jerks, we are pretty much stuck with following LFJ's advice. Sift through their posts and ignore them when they start getting trollish. Sure you can call them on it, but if lose control and over-react, you are just feeding them.
Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 07-04-2014 at 02:42 PM.
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I agree with your first point Steve. As far as the second...I for one am tired of doing that. And why should I have to? Again, if we don't call them on it, then the message is that it IS acceptable behavior. Since there doesn't appear to be any moderator that is going to call them on it, what else are we left with? The majority of the people that come here are able to contain themselves and play nice. Why should they allow the small "a55hole club" to spoil it for all the rest? Why should they put up with the BS?
There are a number of people that are typically regulars here that haven't been posting lately...including yourself. I'm willing to bet one big reason for a some of them is the number of posts lately that degenerate quickly to a b!tchfest due to the small group that can't seem to carry on a civil discussion. I could be wrong. Most of them reading along quietly likely won't speak up.
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Nope. You're right. I spend some time over on another forum. Unfortunately, there aren't as many experienced WC folks as I've met on this site. On the other hand, on that forum we all treat each other decently, whether old-hands at WC or noobs. Otherwise, the mods and mentors step in and set things straight.
On this forum, we have had some great input by really knowledgeable folks, only to see threads degrade into bickering, and as you pointed out, a lot of those people are not posting lately. Our loss.
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And I've had people contact me saying you guys just need to HTFU. The constant whining is just as annoying.
And what about the rest of the pages? As I've seen from the Yip's they try to apply the movements literally, sometimes as short sequences. If that's your main focus and the protractor thing is just to train proper posture for literal application ideas, that's not the same thing at all!Well, on page 21 of Rawcliffe's book 'Wing Chun Kung Fu; The Wooden Dummy',
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Yes, its like too old ladys moaning about the youth of today...... "we never played that music in MY day!!"And I've had people contact me saying you guys just need to HTFU. The constant whining is just as annoying.
Yes, the pair of you, heed Choppers word of wisdom
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When people are driven away and stop contributing then it is a different matter entirely. I imagine those contacting you are the very ones I have voiced concerns over.
Yes, some of Yip Ching and Yip Chun's students will apply things more literally. That is not universal. In terms of an overall attitude, there are more commonalities than differences. Besides, I focused on just that quote and its similarity to what some of PB's students have told me and that's it.
A quick question LFJ, from which poistions does PB apply po pi from? Which sequences in the dummy form helps him to train that? A bit of a rhetorical question but perhaps you can take my point.
Last edited by Paddington; 07-05-2014 at 04:14 AM.
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Well, some people who may have been driven away were happy to post here when everyone considered them experienced, knowledgeable, and perhaps skillful. Then when others became critical of what they were doing and teaching to their students, they took their ball and went home.
An example of one such person may be below. Four moves in response to a jab, the first one being crossing yourself while chasing the punch, ready to eat the second one in reality. After several people 'disrespected' what he does, I haven't seen him posting much anymore. And so what?
Not so sure about that. At least, when comes to what they actually do, it couldn't be more different.In terms of an overall attitude, there are more commonalities than differences.
Yeah, but it's not really similar at all. Different purpose.Besides, I focused on just that quote and its similarity to what some of PB's students have told me and that's it.
Don't know what you mean. What positions does one adopt when fighting?from which poistions does PB apply po pi from?
None. No sequences done on a wooden dummy train application, because it's just a log. Po-paai drills with live partners help train it's application.Which sequences in the dummy form helps him to train that?
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