Ip Man Wing Chun?

[sanjuro_ronin]

29 pages...
Oivay.

[Graham H]

Okay, so help us understand what you're meaning. When in your dummy form you use Pak Sau or Bong Sau, what do make contact with? The limbs of the dummy, of course... but what do you see the limbs representing?

I see the limbs as representing reference points and parametrical limits. Also they are so we can improve focus, precision, timing and the development of "shock" force. The dummy is a tool not a human.

In your drills and training (Chi Sau and Sparring, etc), you are using Pak and Bong against an actual limb. So what are you getting from your dummy work?

Many things in the dummy are not executed correctly because the dummy is not flexible and cannot move. We have to move around it but it would not be the same on a moving opponent. The thinking is important.

Only one action in the whole dummy form is linked. The rest are not. So when people practice the dummy and try to recreate it in sequences of movements on a live opponent they are wrong.

Scientifically the dummy is set up perfectly for training Ving Tsun actions but there are no applications. Just concepts and principles. Its for individual improvement not for fighting imaginary people. It's the same for SLT and CK.

[BPWT..]

Yes he did explain it and then all the hard work had to come and I pretty much had to relearn everything from scratch. He also told me that not everybody "gets it". Funny eh as I had already been practicing WSLVT for a long time with "another" well known Sifu.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea that you need to put in the hard work to be able to do something. The point I was making is that you feel the system is simple and, indeed, that the general idea of it can be explained very quickly. It leaves us with two options.

1) Yip Man couldn't be bothered to teach some people even the very simple and quickly explained.
2) Yip Man's students each interpreted differently what they'd been taught.

I think that in an interview WSL said YM taught everyone the same. This leaves us with the idea that there are different interpretations. Who is to say which one is right - or if there even is a right one? Different things can be equally as effective.

I wouldn't read too much into that video if I were you. It's a big problem these days and as WSL is not with us anymore so we can't can't go and meet him ourselves. It's better just to leave erratic pieces of film in the past.

I don't know... it is interesting to watch such footage of WSL. In that particular clip, he seems to be clearly showing some basic ideas from the dummy and how they can be applied. I understand that this would fit with, say, DP's ideas, but maybe not with PB's. Still, it is footage of WSL himself showing us his own ideas. I don't think that should be left to the past and ignored.

Perhaps if I never questioned anything and realised that many things in WCK are rubbish and moved around by charlatans I would still be in the Ip Chun lineage. You dig?

Yes, we should always question what we learn. I think most of us do, to be honest. It's just that we're not reaching the same conclusions as you

[Paddington]

Its not possible to teach somebody the whole system in one day so better to give them some ideas and possibilities to take away with them.


L@@k at all the comments below the video. Does it remind anybody of something?

Out of interest, how long have you studied with PB and how much actual contact or teaching time have you had with him? Perhaps about 30hrs spread out over a longer period?

I like PB's wing chun and hopefully when finances permit I will get an opportunity to visit his school and feel his arms for myself. There are quite a few people I would like to visit and PB is just one of them.

[Paddington]

Nice clip, never seen that one before.

There are a couple of others and I'll see if I'll can locate them, which includes a small interview where WSL talks about the what he views as an error to think of Bui Jee as the recovery form over the dummy form. But remember sanjuro_ronin some would have it that WSL is just giving reduced if not 'false' information in those seminars. Now, who was it that said that the entire wing chun system could be explained in an afternoon?

[BPWT..]

I see the limbs as representing reference points and parametrical limits.

Okay, but reference points to what? What is the reference? Limits in relation to what?

Also they are so we can improve focus, precision, timing and the development of "shock" force.

Agreed. And I think most lineages would see it this way too.

The dummy is a tool not a human.

Yes a tool - but... a tool that will help train you. But train you for what?

Do you see what I am saying?

Many things in the dummy are not executed correctly because the dummy is not flexible and cannot move. We have to move around it but it would not be the same on a moving opponent. The thinking is important.

I absolutely agree. But this idea of having to move around the dummy because it is not flexible and cannot move can, in terms of a conceptual/principle approach, have a use in application. I don't want to labor the point, but think about the clip of Kevin dealing with a really heavy and really strong Obasi. Kevin couldn't move the guy, but equally, he couldn't deal with the immovable either...

I'm not suggesting he should have tried to apply things "as is" from the dummy form but there are lessons within the form and general dummy training, IMO.

Its for individual improvement not for fighting imaginary people. It's the same for SLT and CK.

Again, I agree that the forms are not an approach that is: "he does this, you do that, then he does this..."

However, it is absolutely possible to take bits of them and to work isolated drills if you want to. More important is what is "inside" the forms. But you say that the forms are about "individual improvement"... but intended to improve what?



Every question above that I 'bolded' leads back to the same answer/conclusion, IMO.

[BPWT..]

Just as a side note... I really hate it when the WCK community describes the system as being "simple". Efficient and direct in application, I can live with

We have these various forms, but they are not what they seem. They are full of body mechanics and methods that you can't easily see just by the looking; they are full of conceptual and principle-based teachings that also aren't always apparent just by watching; there are muscle groups that need to be used and others that need to be relaxed; in my lineage (and others too) there are ideas about using forward force/pressure - and this too can't be see but has to be felt; and there is elbow positioning work that has be 'programmed' in as it is not a natural way to hold the arm.

When I lived in Thailand after Uni, I had the chance to train some Muay Thai. Compared to WC/VT/WT, that was simple. Tough, painful and hard work, but essentially simple.

[Graham H]

1) Yip Man couldn't be bothered to teach some people even the very simple and quickly explained.
2) Yip Man's students each interpreted differently what they'd been taught.


I think that in an interview WSL said YM taught everyone the same. This leaves us with the idea that there are different interpretations. Who is to say which one is right - or if there even is a right one? Different things can be equally as effective.

Perhaps the time they spent studying and ability played a big part. Have you not considered that?

[Graham H]

Out of interest, how long have you studied with PB and how much actual contact or teaching time have you had with him? Perhaps about 30hrs spread out over a longer period?

I like PB's wing chun and hopefully when finances permit I will get an opportunity to visit his school and feel his arms for myself. There are quite a few people I would like to visit and PB is just one of them.

What? Really? You are actually asking me how many HOURS? You are a strange fellow Paddington

I have been practising PB's method since 2008 and practising Ving Tsun since 1996. That's all you need to know poppet.

I wish you luck in your PB journey

[Graham H]

Okay, but reference points to what? What is the reference? Limits in relation to what?

Reference points in relation to your own body structure and limits in relation to controlling our problem of over shooting with actions.

Yes a tool - but... a tool that will help train you. But train you for what?

Do you see what I am saying?

Yes I do and you still don't get it. I asked exactly the same questions when I first was exposed to this way of thinking

I absolutely agree. But this idea of having to move around the dummy because it is not flexible and cannot move can, in terms of a conceptual/principle approach, have a use in application. I don't want to labor the point, but think about the clip of Kevin dealing with a really heavy and really strong Obasi. Kevin couldn't move the guy, but equally, he couldn't deal with the immovable either...

WTF are you bringing Kevin up again? Maybe Obassi was just too much for Kevin. You think that just because he practices VT that he is superman???? Maybe things would have been different had obassi outlined his intentions rather than act like a big chump. Thats all water under the bridge with those guys. Leave it there!

[BPWT..]

Perhaps the time they spent studying and ability played a big part. Have you not considered that?

Yes. It's just that the likes of LS, LY, WSL, TST, HKM, etc, all spend many years learning from YM, and many more years training. And I'm sure they all had/have talent. And they all have slightly different approaches, and I don't really have a problem with that.

It doesn't make sense (to me) to think that only one person got it, or had talent, or trained hard, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are a couple of others and I'll see if I'll can locate them, which includes a small interview where WSL talks about the what he views as an error to think of Bui Jee as the recovery form over the dummy form. But remember sanjuro_ronin some would have it that WSL is just giving reduced if not 'false' information in those seminars. Now, who was it that said that the entire wing chun system could be explained in an afternoon?

I have read his book and seen a video of a few seminars.
The bast that anyone can ever hope to get from those things are a few "OH" moments that will help them, more than that is juts silly really.
Although I myself have seen videos over and over and over of the same seminar and am able to get something new every time.
That said, anyone that implies that ANYONE (including WSL) would knowing give false information in a seminar or video is simply stating that WSL ( or anyone else in similar circumstance) is a liar and purposeful manipulative.

[BPWT..]

Reference points in relation to your own body structure and limits in relation to controlling our problem of over shooting with actions.

That's really my point. The forms, including the dummy form, are all about reference points and yes, in relation to our body structure, and also limits connected to actions... I agree... but all of these things (references, structure, limits) are all in relation to something - and that something is the opponent.

The art/system is all about how we engage with the opponent (their actions and our actions in relation to theirs).

So the dummy is a tool, like you say - but a tool to help you apply the system regarding the above. You say it is for individual improvement, but improvement for what? Improvement of your VT when using your VT.

In a fight you wouldn't Pak Sau the air - you'd Pak against the opponent. To a degree, the dummy has to represent that. The dummy's 'arms' have a specific height. The dummy's leg has a specific position/shape.

WTF are you bringing Kevin up again? Maybe Obassi was just too much for Kevin. You think that just because he practices VT that he is superman????

Superman? No, of course not (whatever picture he might have painted on these boards) Obasi was too much for Kevin. Nothing wrong in that. I bring it up because Obasi is a big guy, and clearly a very strong guy... and someone that most of us would have a d@rn hard time moving/physically controlling. My point is that if you can't move the mountain... you have to know how to go around it.

The dummy form helps, among other things, to teach this idea of contact/pressure and then moving around the 'immovable object'.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To go off this:

The dummy form helps, among other things, to teach this idea of contact/pressure and then moving around the 'immovable object'.

Southern systems almost all have wooden dummies of a sort/
The one thing they all have in common is that they work/develop working off YOUR center line.
Too many times some get overly preoccupied trying to work/control the opponents center line when in reality it is THEIR center line that they should be focusing on and the WD helps with that.

[Vajramusti]

Yes. It's just that the likes of LS, LY, WSL, TST, HKM, etc, all spend many years learning from YM, and many more years training. And I'm sure they all had/have talent. And they all have slightly different approaches, and I don't really have a problem with that.

It doesn't make sense (to me) to think that only one person got it, or had talent, or trained hard, etc.

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Since you mentioned HKM in your opinion-he spent more years and instruction time with Ip Man than anyone else.

Sanjuro is right- books and videos give you some ideas but they are incomplete.

There is no substitute for top quality instruction, practice, application and experience.

The differences in approaches among those you mention are IMO considerable.

Ofcourse there are many approaches to fighting.