Ip Man Wing Chun?

[LFJ]

It is illogical to think people would lack knowledge or understanding and so make what they do 'more' complex and therefore more difficult to make functional.

It's illogical that people would do that, but they do. A lot of theory about what's going to work in a fight turns into complex systems, when what consistently works for anyone regardless of style, are the simple things.

Those with more detail all say they learned it from YM. I don't think that a) they are lying, b) they 'all' misinterpreted.

Sure, it may just be the case that they've over analyzed things with theory and made expansions they believe to be in line with what Yip Man was teaching, when in actual fact it may just be their own extension and they don't realize it has gone beyond, and so attribute it all back to Yip Man nonetheless... In some cases though, it's fairly obvious they're lying.

[BPWT..]

It's illogical that people would do that, but they do. A lot of theory about what's going to work in a fight turns into complex systems, when what consistently works for anyone regardless of style, are the simple things.

All of them? You believe that absolutely all of them did something illogical and that YM not once corrected them. I think it beggars belief.

Sure, it may just be the case that they've over analyzed things with theory and made expansions they believe to be in line with what Yip Man was teaching, when in actual fact it may just be their own extension and they don't realize it has gone beyond, and so attribute it all back to Yip Man nonetheless... In some cases though, it's fairly obvious they're lying.

Again, all of them? And YM never once corrected those students who were closest to him (those who were not simply casual students)?

I added to my earlier post, saying:

Imagine the scenario. Various names train for many years with Yip Man, and all of them misinterpret the system, add to it and make it more complex, all somehow do so in similar ways to each other (and in ways that have a connection to how other WCK styles do things), and at no point during all of those years does Yip Man (their teacher and a person they spent so much time training with) say to these people, "You know, you're all doing it wrong."

As simpler is easier to understand and use than something more complex, and as YM refined the art over time, this would mean all of those who learned from YM in the later years (rather than the earlier years) in Hong Kong, would... have WC/VT/WT that looks more like WSL's, right?

I mean, it is easier to misinterpret something complex than it is to misinterpret something simple, and harder to train it too. And yet...

Leung Ting's contact with YM was in YM's later years. By your logic, what he learned would have been the most stripped down and simple version yet. And yet...

WSL fought, and this had to have had an impact on how he practised the art in his early VT years (teens and in his early to mid 20s). But Hawkins Cheung fought also, as did Duncan Leung. Both of these people do things in their Chi Sau training that you and Graham say are misinterpretations. Elmond Leung, a teenager when he started learning under YM, went on to learn from Leung Ting after YM retired. He's never said that what LT taught was grossly different to what YM had been teaching him. He is therefore lying too?

C'mon. It makes far more sense, logically, that WSL taught VT the way he did because he wanted to make things as simple as possible. Those who witnessed his fights said they were very quick, very aggressive, and consisted mostly of entering with a kick and then chain punching. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this if it won him his fights, and nothing wrong at all with him teaching what he taught.

But again, that does not mean that all others = bullish!t.

[KPM]

I have a few points to interject that I feel have some bearing on this conversation. Maybe others will think so, maybe not.

1. From what I have read about Yip Man he was fairly easy-going and informal as a teacher. He does not come across as rigid in his thinking or demanding that everyone do Wing Chun exactly "his" way. If two students came to him to settle an argument over a technique or concept he was likely to tell them they were both right. So I can see him having no problem with his students developing their own interpretations of his art. He wouldn't have necessarily demanded that everyone do things exactly as he was doing them. But I wasn't there. I could be wrong.

2. Absolutely simpler is better. Some people make things very complex in Chi Sao. IMHO, there has been way too much emphasis on Chi Sao in some lineages. It has become a "thing" unto itself rather than just one phase of training. Some Wing Chun people have learned to play the Chi Sao "game" and made it more and more complex. You would think the purpose of Wing Chun training was to do Chi Sao...not to fight and defend oneself.

3. Even interpretations of Wing Chun that seem less efficient and "wrong" compared to others can still work well when the person has trained them enough.

4. "Bullsh!t" is a relative term. Compared to what? No one's Wing Chun is the "gold standard" for comparison to everyone involved in Wing Chun. BS to one lineage may be perfectly acceptable and workable to another lineage.

[HybridWarrior]

I have a few points to interject that I feel have some bearing on this conversation. Maybe others will think so, maybe not.

1. From what I have read about Yip Man he was fairly easy-going and informal as a teacher. He does not come across as rigid in his thinking or demanding that everyone do Wing Chun exactly "his" way. If two students came to him to settle an argument over a technique or concept he was likely to tell them they were both right. So I can see him having no problem with his students developing their own interpretations of his art. He wouldn't have necessarily demanded that everyone do things exactly as he was doing them. But I wasn't there. I could be wrong.

2. Absolutely simpler is better. Some people make things very complex in Chi Sao. IMHO, there has been way too much emphasis on Chi Sao in some lineages. It has become a "thing" unto itself rather than just one phase of training. Some Wing Chun people have learned to play the Chi Sao "game" and made it more and more complex. You would think the purpose of Wing Chun training was to do Chi Sao...not to fight and defend oneself.

3. Even interpretations of Wing Chun that seem less efficient and "wrong" compared to others can still work well when the person has trained them enough.

4. "Bullsh!t" is a relative term. Compared to what? No one's Wing Chun is the "gold standard" for comparison to everyone involved in Wing Chun. BS to one lineage may be perfectly acceptable and workable to another lineage.

Good post KPM

[Graham H]

.................regarding Leung Ting

The press conference of the Wing Chun School gained wide attendance and the people there were emotional. Apart from the many chief instructors of the School, it was attended by senior members of more than ten schools and more than ten leading members of the Chinese Martial Arts General Association of Hong Kong, as well as innumerable journalists.

During the session, Sifu Wong Sheun Leung pointed out: Leung Ting did not begin to claim himself head of the school now. In fact, even before Grandmaster Ip Man passed away, he already identified himself the future head of the school to a reporter of a foreign martial arts magazine [where he figured he could get away with saying anything he wanted]. Leung Ting even went so far as to say that he represented Wing Chun, “Leung Ting” is tantamount to Wing Chun, Wing Chun is tantamount to “Leung Ting”. He also said that Grandmaster Ip Man personally selected him as the leader of the instructors of the Wing Chun School. In many of his own articles, the self-styled “Chief Instructor of the Wing Chun School”, “Grandmaster Ip Man’s youngest disciple”. He even blatantly printed the words ’8th Dan Black Belt of Wing Chun on his business cards.”

Sifu Wong Sheun Leung went on to point out: “The Wing Chun School is a Chinese kung fu school. It has no black belts and white belts at all, neither is its practiced to divide disciples into dans or levels. Leung Ting has persistently falsified, claiming himself “Leader of instructors”, “chief instructor”, “head of the school”, and the “youngest disciple”. All these are his tricks to raise his position. Now he even dares to deceitfully claim himself head of the school. We, members of the Wing Chun School can no longer tolerate this in muteness and allow a traitor to fledge in order to appease him.”

Now, after all, is Leung Ting a disciple of Grandmaster Ip Man? Ip Man’s eldest son Sifu Ip Chun testified that he had never seen his father teaching pugilism to Leung Ting. This proves that Leung Ting is not a disciple personally-tutored by Ip Man.

Some asked that if Leung Ting was not Ip Man’s pupil, he was at least Sifu Leung Sheung’s pupil. (in other words, he was Ip Man’s second-generation disciple.) But Sifu Leung Sheung declared that neither was Leung Ting his disciple. The Sihing of the Wing Chun School Leung Sheung said at the press conference: “I have a disciple called Chong Pei, Leung Ting has followed Chong Pei to learn kung fu.”

This unambiguously establishes that Leung Ting was a junior member of the Wing Chun School, instead of being Ip Man’s disciple, he is Sifu Leung Sheung’s second generation disciple, or Grandmaster Ip Man’s third-generation disciple, up to now the most junior member in the Wing Chun School.

[HybridWarrior]

.................regarding Leung Ting

The press conference of the Wing Chun School gained wide attendance and the people there were emotional. Apart from the many chief instructors of the School, it was attended by senior members of more than ten schools and more than ten leading members of the Chinese Martial Arts General Association of Hong Kong, as well as innumerable journalists.

During the session, Sifu Wong Sheun Leung pointed out: Leung Ting did not begin to claim himself head of the school now. In fact, even before Grandmaster Ip Man passed away, he already identified himself the future head of the school to a reporter of a foreign martial arts magazine [where he figured he could get away with saying anything he wanted]. Leung Ting even went so far as to say that he represented Wing Chun, “Leung Ting” is tantamount to Wing Chun, Wing Chun is tantamount to “Leung Ting”. He also said that Grandmaster Ip Man personally selected him as the leader of the instructors of the Wing Chun School. In many of his own articles, the self-styled “Chief Instructor of the Wing Chun School”, “Grandmaster Ip Man’s youngest disciple”. He even blatantly printed the words ’8th Dan Black Belt of Wing Chun on his business cards.”

Sifu Wong Sheun Leung went on to point out: “The Wing Chun School is a Chinese kung fu school. It has no black belts and white belts at all, neither is its practiced to divide disciples into dans or levels. Leung Ting has persistently falsified, claiming himself “Leader of instructors”, “chief instructor”, “head of the school”, and the “youngest disciple”. All these are his tricks to raise his position. Now he even dares to deceitfully claim himself head of the school. We, members of the Wing Chun School can no longer tolerate this in muteness and allow a traitor to fledge in order to appease him.”

Now, after all, is Leung Ting a disciple of Grandmaster Ip Man? Ip Man’s eldest son Sifu Ip Chun testified that he had never seen his father teaching pugilism to Leung Ting. This proves that Leung Ting is not a disciple personally-tutored by Ip Man.

Some asked that if Leung Ting was not Ip Man’s pupil, he was at least Sifu Leung Sheung’s pupil. (in other words, he was Ip Man’s second-generation disciple.) But Sifu Leung Sheung declared that neither was Leung Ting his disciple. The Sihing of the Wing Chun School Leung Sheung said at the press conference: “I have a disciple called Chong Pei, Leung Ting has followed Chong Pei to learn kung fu.”

This unambiguously establishes that Leung Ting was a junior member of the Wing Chun School, instead of being Ip Man’s disciple, he is Sifu Leung Sheung’s second generation disciple, or Grandmaster Ip Man’s third-generation disciple, up to now the most junior member in the Wing Chun School.

Hmmm...interesting. I hadn't heard this before. Thx for posting!

[Graham H]

Hmmm...interesting. I hadn't heard this before. Thx for posting!

Unfortunately for BPWT he really doesn't know too many things about the world of Wing Chun....................

Perhaps he has Daddy issues but IMO he could not have picked a worse person in that clown Leung Ting to support.

[KPM]

Where and when is this account from Graham? LT does have the typical teacher/student posed photos with Yip Man. But for all I know Yip Man was willing to pose with anyone who asked!

[BPWT..]

.................regarding Leung Ting

Oh, man... where to start? Is this what you base these opinions on, Graham? Do you even know the details behind this story? I think not. So... here goes.


Leung Ting gave an interview and said he was the head of the school. The Wing Tsun school. His school. The one he taught at - to his students. He's given himself all sorts of ranks over the years... ranks in his own school and organisation.

The journalist in question didn't write Wing Tsun, he wrote "Wing Chun." And hence everyone ****ed their pants and a big conference was called.

In itself, this wasn't even necessary. As soon as the article was published and Leung Ting saw it, Leung Ting himself asked for a correction because the journalist had been inaccurate in his spelling of "Wing Tsun".

I have no idea if he ever got that correction - but I doubt it. But it makes no difference either way. Because...

Leung Ting made it clear to the Hong Kong Wing Chunners what had happened. It was funny, really. How could someone so junior be named the head of Yip Man's school? But LT explained the situation anyways. But things weren't so simple - the HK WCK guys called their conference anyways - presumably to simply make it clear to the general public that Leung Ting was not the head of Yip Man's WCK.

I'm sure people were emotional, LOL, as your quoted text says. Who do you think called all the journalists? And why? It doesn't take much thought to work it out, fella.

"He also said that Grandmaster Ip Man personally selected him as the leader of the instructors of the Wing Chun School."

Leung Ting was appointed to a position as one of the Chief Instructor at Yip Man's Ving Tsun association. Appointed by Yip Man. If the journalist wrote what he did, the way he did, then that is his bending of the data, not Leung Ting's. LT has never made the claim that he was a leader, or teacher, of the other instructors. How could he be. He was junior to so many. Probably, if such a thing were to have happened, it would have gone to Leung Sheung - or whomever else was most senior in Hong Kong. Certainly not to Leung Ting, LOL... which he knew full. They all knew this... and yet the conference was called anyways. Worked it out yet, Graham?

Sifu Wong Sheun Leung went on to point out: “The Wing Chun School is a Chinese kung fu school. It has no black belts and white belts at all, neither is its practiced to divide disciples into dans or levels."

Yes, traditionally there might not have been dans, levels, belts etc, whatever we want to call them. But in Leung Ting's "Wing Tsun" organisation he created a curriculum. It was structured around levels. That was his choice. His teaching method, to his students. He created uniforms too. Guess what... most Wing Chun organisations in the world today do a similar thing (uniforms, curriculum, levels). Leung Ting gave himself a rank. A rank in his own organisation. Not a rank in the Wing Chun world as a whole. He was crystal clear on this, and always has been.

"Now, after all, is Leung Ting a disciple of Grandmaster Ip Man? Ip Man’s eldest son Sifu Ip Chun testified that he had never seen his father teaching pugilism to Leung Ting. This proves that Leung Ting is not a disciple personally-tutored by Ip Man."

This might just be the best bit of all the garbage you quote from, Graham. Ip Chun doesn't see his father teaching Leung Ting. Ergo, his father didn't do so. Hilarious.

This, of course, is said following his father's death. Why? Because when YM was alive and well, everyone knew he was teaching Leung Ting. How? Because Yip Man said it himself in an interview with New Martial Hero.

Yes, that's right - Yip Man himself said it. I guess Ip Chun didn't get the memo (read the article).

So why is all of this such a concern, and why hold conferences, etc, when Leung Ting had already made everything very clear to those who mattered (the senior students of Yip Man)?

The answer is dead simple. Leung Ting was gaining attention. And gaining large numbers of students. Some people didn't like it. First chance they got... called a conference; invite the press, ignore the fact Leung Ting has already explained that the original reporter f*cked things up. What Leung Ting found stupid and kinda funny, turned out to be quite serious to others.

But why so serious, you ask? Because everyone knew that Yip Man had retired from public teaching and had taken on Leung Ting as a student, regardless. Because in doing so, YM had allowed this generation jumping - which was unusual at the time. Because this, combined with the fact that LT was clearly a talented teacher and good at his art, and clearly knew how to market himself and his Wing Tsun after YM's death... caused a problem.

He, LT, was gaining more public recognition than people senior to him.

Simple. As. That.

[BPWT..]

Of course, you can ignore all of that if you like, Graham. Just stick with whatever nonsense you hear about Leung Ting from PB. Right?

[Graham H]

Where and when is this account from Graham? LT does have the typical teacher/student posed photos with Yip Man. But for all I know Yip Man was willing to pose with anyone who asked!

It was from a meeting that was held years and years ago. Listen man! Everybody knows the history of LT. The only people that have fallen for his BS is people like BPWT. If wants to be that guy then let him get on with it. I just wish he would stop posting lines and lines of rubbish about the whole YM connection when it is completely false information!

LT would be the first to stand by these ridiculous claims as he made them all up and BPWT has fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

If you think LT is the only one he is not! He may be the worst of a bad bunch but there are more. Ironically though most of it is in the WT umbrella. I find all those guys twisted and weird. Fortunately there isn't much of it in the UK so it's not my problem but in other parts of Europe it's like a brain washing cult. I've seen footage of things that go on in it and it's just downright bizarre.

Leung Ting is like Chinese Pied Piper so when BPWT keeps on about him I think he must be one of the easily led children. The lengths he goes to to defend it though has to be admired but its less than significant in reality.

There is loads more dirt out there on LT. Some false but much true. You can't argue with facts!

..............unless you are BPWT of course.

[Graham H]

Oh, man... where to start? Is this what you base these opinions on, Graham? Do you even know the details behind this story? I think not. So... here goes.


Leung Ting gave an interview and said he was the head of the school. The Wing Tsun school. His school. The one he taught at - to his students. He's given himself all sorts of ranks over the years... ranks in his own school and organisation.

The journalist in question didn't write Wing Tsun, he wrote "Wing Chun." And hence everyone ****ed their pants and a big conference was called.

In itself, this wasn't even necessary. As soon as the article was published and Leung Ting saw it, Leung Ting himself asked for a correction because the journalist had been inaccurate in his spelling of "Wing Tsun".

I have no idea if he ever got that correction - but I doubt it. But it makes no difference either way. Because...

Leung Ting made it clear to the Hong Kong Wing Chunners what had happened. It was funny, really. How could someone so junior be named the head of Yip Man's school? But LT explained the situation anyways. But things weren't so simple - the HK WCK guys called their conference anyways - presumably to simply make it clear to the general public that Leung Ting was not the head of Yip Man's WCK.

I'm sure people were emotional, LOL, as your quoted text says. Who do you think called all the journalists? And why? It doesn't take much thought to work it out, fella.

"He also said that Grandmaster Ip Man personally selected him as the leader of the instructors of the Wing Chun School."

Leung Ting was appointed to a position as one of the Chief Instructor at Yip Man's Ving Tsun association. Appointed by Yip Man. If the journalist wrote what he did, the way he did, then that is his bending of the data, not Leung Ting's. LT has never made the claim that he was a leader, or teacher, of the other instructors. How could he be. He was junior to so many. Probably, if such a thing were to have happened, it would have gone to Leung Sheung - or whomever else was most senior in Hong Kong. Certainly not to Leung Ting, LOL... which he knew full. They all knew this... and yet the conference was called anyways. Worked it out yet, Graham?

Sifu Wong Sheun Leung went on to point out: “The Wing Chun School is a Chinese kung fu school. It has no black belts and white belts at all, neither is its practiced to divide disciples into dans or levels."

Yes, traditionally there might not have been dans, levels, belts etc, whatever we want to call them. But in Leung Ting's "Wing Tsun" organisation he created a curriculum. It was structured around levels. That was his choice. His teaching method, to his students. He created uniforms too. Guess what... most Wing Chun organisations in the world today do a similar thing (uniforms, curriculum, levels). Leung Ting gave himself a rank. A rank in his own organisation. Not a rank in the Wing Chun world as a whole. He was crystal clear on this, and always has been.

"Now, after all, is Leung Ting a disciple of Grandmaster Ip Man? Ip Man’s eldest son Sifu Ip Chun testified that he had never seen his father teaching pugilism to Leung Ting. This proves that Leung Ting is not a disciple personally-tutored by Ip Man."

This might just be the best bit of all the garbage you quote from, Graham. Ip Chun doesn't see his father teaching Leung Ting. Ergo, his father didn't do so. Hilarious.

This, of course, is said following his father's death. Why? Because when YM was alive and well, everyone knew he was teaching Leung Ting. How? Because Yip Man said it himself in an interview with New Martial Hero.

Yes, that's right - Yip Man himself said it. I guess Ip Chun didn't get the memo (read the article).

So why is all of this such a concern, and why hold conferences, etc, when Leung Ting had already made everything very clear to those who mattered (the senior students of Yip Man)?

The answer is dead simple. Leung Ting was gaining attention. And gaining large numbers of students. Some people didn't like it. First chance they got... called a conference; invite the press, ignore the fact Leung Ting has already explained that the original reporter f*cked things up. What Leung Ting found stupid and kinda funny, turned out to be quite serious to others.

But why so serious, you ask? Because everyone knew that Yip Man had retired from public teaching and had taken on Leung Ting as a student, regardless. Because in doing so, YM had allowed this generation jumping - which was unusual at the time. Because this, combined with the fact that LT was clearly a talented teacher and good at his art, and clearly knew how to market himself and his Wing Tsun after YM's death... caused a problem.

He, LT, was gaining more public recognition than people senior to him.

Simple. As. That.

My point proven again and not worth the read............................................. Get over it son!

[Graham H]

Of course, you can ignore all of that if you like, Graham. Just stick with whatever nonsense you hear about Leung Ting from PB. Right?

It's not from PB. In fact why do you keep bring him into it? PB doesn't like LT or his Kung Fu. He thinks he is an idiot as do most people.


Get over it FFS!

[BPWT..]

My point proven again and not worth the read............................................. Get over it son!

You prove your idiocy once again. You make dumbarse claims, post idiotic things that came about because of jealousy, pure and simple. So I set you straight. But you refuse to read it because it will burst your little bubble.

Whatever (as another legend in the PB camp liked to say).

[BPWT..]

I just wish he would stop posting lines and lines of rubbish about the whole YM connection when it is completely false information!

So you're calling Yip Man a liar.

Nice, Graham, nice.

Wait... don't tell me.... you're going to say, "I don't care what Yip Man said."

LOL.