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Thread: Ip Man Wing Chun?

  1. #91
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    I've never been a fan of Leung Ting. I don't like his Wing Chun body structure and I don't like his marketing. The "leaning back while hitting" thing never made any sense to me. But.....through the years I have been involved in Wing Chun it has never really been a question that Leung Ting studied with Yip Man. There has been plenty of photos and such to back it up.

    From what Graham posted earlier:

    Sifu Wong Sheun Leung went on to point out: “The Wing Chun School is a Chinese kung fu school. It has no black belts and white belts at all, neither is its practiced to divide disciples into dans or levels. Leung Ting has persistently falsified, claiming himself “Leader of instructors”, “chief instructor”, “head of the school”, and the “youngest disciple”. All these are his tricks to raise his position. Now he even dares to deceitfully claim himself head of the school. We, members of the Wing Chun School can no longer tolerate this in muteness and allow a traitor to fledge in order to appease him.”

    To me, WSL clearly is questioning LT's authority and position within the Yip Man lineage. He never says that LT didn't learn from Yip Man.

    Now, after all, is Leung Ting a disciple of Grandmaster Ip Man? Ip Man’s eldest son Sifu Ip Chun testified that he had never seen his father teaching pugilism to Leung Ting. This proves that Leung Ting is not a disciple personally-tutored by Ip Man.

    This is something included by whoever wrote up the coverage of the press conference. It isn't a quote. It doesn't say that Ip Chun was actually present and pointed this out. Who knows if Ip Chun actually said this at all?


    Some asked that if Leung Ting was not Ip Man’s pupil, he was at least Sifu Leung Sheung’s pupil. (in other words, he was Ip Man’s second-generation disciple.) But Sifu Leung Sheung declared that neither was Leung Ting his disciple. The Sihing of the Wing Chun School Leung Sheung said at the press conference: “I have a disciple called Chong Pei, Leung Ting has followed Chong Pei to learn kung fu.”

    LS says here that LT studied primarily with Chong Pei rather than himself. He does not state that LS never studied with Yip Man afterwards.

    I have don't have any stake in this either way. But I have to say that I agree with what BPWT has been saying as far as LT's "lineage." For what its worth.....

  2. #92
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    Many bad things can said about Leung Ting but...His style is still most popular and has more followers in Europe than all other styles\lineages together . Ting brought WT in Europe and opened the door for all others who came later . He made WT most popular kung fu style in Europe .He is the person who earned the most from WT . This may be the reason why a lot people hate him . There is nothing wrong with Ting's style , and it is totally unimportant whether or not he had learned from Yip Man directly, there are only people who cannot stand his successes , that is all .

  3. #93

    Red face

    Yes, the first one is, I believe, where Golden Graham pulled his quote. It was, to quote the article, "To deal with Leung Ting’s self-proclamation of being Head of the Wing Chun School, the three main organizations of the Wing Chun School immediately held a joint conference."

    Like I said, he never made this claim.

    The second link: well, forgive me, I'd never heard this expression (sounds American). As someone who has fought (in most scenarios linked to the word), and someone who studies and teaches Wing Tsun, I thought you'd be interested in Chris' take on things - rather than indifferent to it. But it doesn't matter, I posted the link to show method and approach (which I think is logical).

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Like I said, he never made this claim.
    Or he thought to switch the spelling as an excuse to cover his arse...

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by zuti car View Post
    Many bad things can said about Leung Ting but...His style is still most popular and has more followers in Europe than all other styles\lineages together . Ting brought WT in Europe and opened the door for all others who came later . He made WT most popular kung fu style in Europe .He is the person who earned the most from WT . This may be the reason why a lot people hate him . There is nothing wrong with Ting's style , and it is totally unimportant whether or not he had learned from Yip Man directly, there are only people who cannot stand his successes , that is all .
    To be honest, there was Wing Chun in Europe before Leung Ting.

    But yes, he certainly made it popular in a way no one else had before him. Many people hated him for his success - and some still do! It is the root of the problems between Leung Sheung and Leung Ting. The former even claiming he never taught him. And, again to be fair, LT had many negative things to say about LS too.

    Mostly it is all childish. Being childish is not beneath Leung Ting.

    But I'm interested in his system, not in the nonsense that is the politics of Hong Kong Wing Chun.

  6. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Or he thought to switch the spelling as an excuse to cover his arse...
    While I would be the first to admit that LT is capable of saying something controversial, and sometimes needlessly so... I can't believe he would give interviews and make claims like this, thinking no one would hear about the article, read it, share it, etc.

    A journalist made a mistake, or maybe was looking to stir up a bit of excitement. Add this to the controversial comments LT had made, mixed with his success and money... and the knives come out. (which in Hong Kong means: call a press conference and thump your chest).

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    To be honest, there was Wing Chun in Europe before Leung Ting.

    But yes, he certainly made it popular in a way no one else had before him. Many people hated him for his success - and some still do! It is the root of the problems between Leung Sheung and Leung Ting. The former even claiming he never taught him. And, again to be fair, LT had many negative things to say about LS too.

    Mostly it is all childish. Being childish is not beneath Leung Ting.

    But I'm interested in his system, not in the nonsense that is the politics of Hong Kong Wing Chun.
    As far as I know , Ting was the first who taught WT to European people back in 1977. There are some claims that some VT guy in England came in 60s but he never taught white people ,so...Ting was first

    I have started with WT in high school ...

  8. #98
    That might be true. Though I am pretty sure Keith Kernsphect learned some Wing Chun in London before he met Leung Ting. Then again, KK was not the first European to learn from LT... there was someone from Scandinavia, I believe, who started just before him.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    While I would be the first to admit that LT is capable of saying something controversial, and sometimes needlessly so... I can't believe he would give interviews and make claims like this, thinking no one would hear about the article, read it, share it, etc.
    Sometimes unbelievable things do happen.

    A journalist made a mistake, or maybe was looking to stir up a bit of excitement.
    How do you know? Changing the spelling sounds like a nice save. When did LT officially choose his new spelling? Is it documented anywhere verifiably prior to this blunder?

  10. #100
    @LFJ

    A person blowing their own trumpet to promote their classes is one thing, making false claims about being the head of the entire Yip Man Wing Chun family is another. Someone would only say the latter - that they were essentially Yip Man's successor - if they actually had proof of it.
    And if they had proof, the first people they would have shared it with would have been the VTAA... the people who would have mattered in such a case.

    Instead we are to believe that LT shared this valuable little gem of huge significance with a journalist? And despite having no proof to back up the claim? But in the hope that the journalist wouldn't print it? Or the hope that it would be printed, but that no one senior to LT would read it or hear about it?

    It's almost too silly for words.

    Leung Ting was, and is, constantly being interviewed by newspapers, magazines and TV shows. He loves the media attention. Sometimes he rubs people up the wrong way. We all know that. He is what he is - for better or worse.

    Look at this forum - how many times have people had words misinterpreted or bent out of shape. Just today I misunderstood something you said (cool story) and thought your were implying someone else was not telling the truth.

    Sh!t happens.

    Leung Ting has often spoken about being the head of his organisation and classes. The highest ranked person in his school. He promotes himself often by telling of how he was a closed door student. He never claims to have been the only private student.

    And so on and so forth. An article that's inaccurate doesn't sell any less copies - it might even sell more.



    When did he officially choose the new spelling? I've no idea. I don't know when was it registered. Or when he first changed the spelling and used it in promotion - something that could have happened earlier, I suppose. I heard that he often simply referred to what he did as Leung Ting Wing Tsun. When he spoke, people knew he was referring to his Wing Tsun, not what WSL was doing, or TST was doing, etc, etc. This had to be the case as often people weren't writing it down in English - they were speaking and writing in Chinese. However differently you and I spell the word, we pronounce it the same.

  11. #101
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    I've seen crazier things in the TCMA world to put anything past anyone!

    A guy came to China to a very well-known master claiming to be an original disciple of this master's late master a decade prior to the master's arrival. To the master's face, the guy told him he was very happy that he (the master) came along because now they are the original brothers under the grandmaster. The whole story was BS and it was his first time in China, yet he had the gall to say this directly to the master, via interpreter. After getting a bunch of training pictures and such with the master who didn't consider what those pictures could be used for later, upon return to his country he was suddenly this master's "disciple" and "official representative" in his country. He grew an enormous following.

    This is one of a number of similar cases I've personally witnessed with this one master. People think when they go back to their country nobody knows their truth and they can get away with whatever they want to say, and to an extent that's true. Leung Ting can claim to have been the last indoor disciple of Yip Man so no one knows what went on behind those closed doors. With that, he can say and teach whatever he wants, and who's to say otherwise?

    Still, as I've said, the substance of these people's teachings speak for itself, and certainly they are able to grow large followings due to their marketing and students not knowing any better, factually or technically.

    So seriously, with these kinds of stories I wouldn't put anything past anyone! Changing the spelling to Wing Tsun is a good save though. Just too bad it doesn't help the system.

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    That might be true. Though I am pretty sure Keith Kernsphect learned some Wing Chun in London before he met Leung Ting. Then again, KK was not the first European to learn from LT... there was someone from Scandinavia, I believe, who started just before him.
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Lee sing first came to London with wing chun. Then came Paul Lam a student of Leung Shun. My friend Alan Lamb learned from Lee Sing school then Paul Lamb before going to Hong Kong.
    Kernsphecht already was making arrangements to teach out of a castle, He met up with Alan Lamb but Alan was headed for the US and K hooked up with Leung Ting.

    GrecoWong from Moy Yat line came later. Together with Clausenitzer of Australia who was living in the Uk at the time they wrote the first wc book in English.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Lee sing first came to London with wing chun.
    It's not a fact many outside the UK are aware of but yes, Lee Shing was the first to represent Yip Man here. Also the first to start promoting the Martial Arts Athletic Assoc. too from it's inception in 1967. My own Sifu had already been with Lee Shing for 2 years when that happend, and he see and witnessed many things!
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  14. #104
    I have a question about Ip Man wing chun for people such as Joy and others with a lot of experience. To what extent are the knives and the way they are integrated into the wider system, a hallmark and key to what people call 'Ip Man wing chun'?

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    I have a question about Ip Man wing chun for people such as Joy and others with a lot of experience. To what extent are the knives and the way they are integrated into the wider system, a hallmark and key to what people call 'Ip Man wing chun'?
    \---------
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ip Man imo taught only about 4 people the full coordinated use of the knives. Two are now dead , one no longer practices leaving one: Ho Kam Ming who is except for some corrections of students and grandstudents is basically retired. Ho Kam Ming taught his senior students the knives.WSL taught Petersen, Bayer and others the knives. WSL and his students have taught many their version of the knives. Nowadays people "learn" from videos and Youtube. HKM finished his knife training with IM before WSL though WSL started wing chun before HKM. Ip Man called his knife usage- bot jom do. Others have different names for the knives.. double knives, butterfly knives etc.Many knives are poorly made- some more appropriate for hung ga and other styles.
    Proper control of hands and legs ( body integration) is important imo for learning the knives well. Hence knives cap the Ip Man curriculum.
    One does not walk around with bjds these days. ..though I knew a guy years ago who claimed that he used them in a NYC street fight.

    But the knives properly used add to the movement skills of wing chun.
    Last edited by Vajramusti; 06-22-2014 at 06:10 AM.

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