Wing Chun Power Generation

[Wayfaring]

Wave type force is useful, and is not unique to wing chun. It also tends to allow more distinct transition of weight, so that footwork and, by extension, technique can be faster. However, in pretty much all kung fu styles, it is also matched with rotational energy at times as well, though often rotation around an axis versus on. It is in wing chun as well, and like most styles, sometimes there is rotation, sometimes there isn't. Techniques that occur on pivoting steps would be the most obvious example. That pivot also can impart speed, but without the wave type power generation, it is hard to capitalize on this, as weightedness on all techniques turns into an issue due to the limits of rotational force on ability to fluidly alter direction except in exactly the direction the pivot requires.

Yes I've seen wave type force in the few other southern Chinese ma's (5 animals, lohan, tai chi, bagua, Vietnamese variants, and hung gar where I've seen). And yes WCK has rotation too, it's just that the wave type is predominant.

This is exactly why training power generation too long without linking it to footwork is not wise, imo. Power generation and footwork are not separate and discrete entities, and the longer they are treated as such, the more the practitioner will focus on one in detriment to the other. You cannot know the first in isolation from the second. It is not "don't practice isolation gongs" but "as soon as able to begin, practice the isolated gong and the gong related to footwork it works with."

I agree. Actually power starts from footwork and your connection to the ground.

[KPM]

Power generation and footwork are not separate and discrete entities, and the longer they are treated as such, the more the practitioner will focus on one in detriment to the other. You cannot know the first in isolation from the second. It is not "don't practice isolation gongs" but "as soon as able to begin, practice the isolated gong and the gong related to footwork it works with."

This is exactly as I have trained it in Pin Sun WCK. Many of the short sets teach a specific footwork pattern. But the set is first practiced stationary with "body" and "gong" development and later the footwork pattern is added.

[JPinAZ]

Anyway besides all the static, WCK generates power with more of what I call a wave motion, not rotation. So the advantage is you can generate power without bigger rotational movements. Without bigger movements = a little faster. Maybe you don't generate 100% of the power you could with a full turn, but a % of that say 80% where you don't lose facing and centerline can be plenty effective against bigger rotational movements.

I can agree with this, 'specially if we are talking about the body linking together to generate power via ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist connection, or more specifically to a punch: Knee/Hip/Elbow. As you mentioned, the major thing that makes WC unique when compared to other arts is that this power generation method still fits with WC's ideas of facing & CL, as well as 2 hands operating as one/equal reach, efficiency and economy of motion (but I guess you can say the latter are pretty much covered in the first two )

In regards to other's comments of footwork, sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it's not. But IMO, footwork is more of a necessity based on strategy/tactics more-so than a need to generate power when hitting. It helps in some cases, but most of the examples I can think of, the footwork is used to gain a better position while striking vs footwork being a requirement to generate power when striking form a WC POV
.
One example I can think of from a technique POV could be when you need to use laap/da with footwork. Sure, the twisting & rotational forces of the body helps generate power, but I say you are laap'g because you have to clear an obstruction in order to land anything at all - not because you want to use the footwork to generate more power (but it helps). If the line was open, you wouldn't need to laap or use footwork, you'd simple strike from where you are.

[Faux Newbie]

I can agree with this, 'specially if we are talking about the body linking together to generate power via ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist connection, or more specifically to a punch: Knee/Hip/Elbow. As you mentioned, the major thing that makes WC unique when compared to other arts is that this power generation method still fits with WC's ideas of facing & CL, as well as 2 hands operating as one/equal reach, efficiency and economy of motion (but I guess you can say the latter are pretty much covered in the first two )

In regards to other's comments of footwork, sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it's not. But IMO, footwork is more of a necessity based on strategy/tactics more-so than a need to generate power when hitting. It helps in some cases, but most of the examples I can think of, the footwork is used to gain a better position while striking vs footwork being a requirement to generate power when striking form a WC POV
.
One example I can think of from a technique POV could be when you need to use laap/da with footwork. Sure, the twisting & rotational forces of the body helps generate power, but I say you are laap'g because you have to clear an obstruction in order to land anything at all - not because you want to use the footwork to generate more power (but it helps). If the line was open, you wouldn't need to laap or use footwork, you'd simple strike from where you are.

At the same time, and not bringing up a point I think you would disagree with at all, but if doing the footwork, there is no reason not to use it for the maximum power it can give. If moving is not advised, conversely, it doesn't help to add footwork for power, if the footwork makes distance too close for what is being done.

Part of why I focus heavily on linking footwork to one's engine (I know some people here hate that term, I'm not trying to be a pain on THIS issue, it's just a term that SOMEWHAT applies), is that power generation can really mess up footwork if it isn't trained together, and messing up footwork is a recipe for disaster, ime.

[Faux Newbie]

This is exactly as I have trained it in Pin Sun WCK. Many of the short sets teach a specific footwork pattern. But the set is first practiced stationary with "body" and "gong" development and later the footwork pattern is added.

Same here, even if a different style.

[Paddington]

I can agree with this, 'specially if we are talking about the body linking together to generate power via ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist connection, or more specifically to a punch: Knee/Hip/Elbow. [...]

Nice to know we agree. Making sure one has been able to exploit the ground reaction force, that is having a good connection to the ground, also seems to meet with agreement by all.

[Faux Newbie]

I agree. Actually power starts from footwork and your connection to the ground.

Agree completely. I tend to look at is as a balancing act. It's easy to focus on having the most power possible, but this can mean a loss of balance or mobility, which is not worth it. Adequate power always achieves its goals, great power sometimes does.

Boxing (as used in boxing, not mma) focuses on maximum power that still allows hand strikes. Not having to deal with legs, stance can be altered to do this, but there is still an emphasis on still being able to move and box. Just using this as an example. There are many people with KO power who lose to more technical boxers.

Because kung fu, mma, etc, must deal with legs and throws and different goals in the clinch, it all becomes even more a balancing act. The ability to move into position is the easiest way to ruin an opponent's plans, but it conversely requires a platform where the footwork easily translates to being able to affect the opponent.

[JPinAZ]

At the same time, and not bringing up a point I think you would disagree with at all, but if doing the footwork, there is no reason not to use it for the maximum power it can give.

Sure, why would I argue that? But in WC (at least in my experience), we don't typically throw a punch if we are out of range for it to connect. What I mean is, attacks (saat, palm strike, punch, etc) are usually thrown when you are already in proper position for them to be most effective. We don't typically throw short range punches when we are out of range and have to use footwork to make up the distance.

If moving is not advised, conversely, it doesn't help to add footwork for power, if the footwork makes distance too close for what is being done.

Agreed. And I'm not advocating we never move our feet. There are always slight adjustments going on, and if you can add a little extra oomph to a punch by putting your whole body behind it with a slight adjustement starting from the ground up, then that is always a plus. But this is different than say someone stepping in from non-contact to contact range blasting away with chain punches

Part of why I focus heavily on linking footwork to one's engine (I know some people here hate that term, I'm not trying to be a pain on THIS issue, it's just a term that SOMEWHAT applies), is that power generation can really mess up footwork if it isn't trained together, and messing up footwork is a recipe for disaster, ime.

Since you do not practice WC, maybe it would help if you define what you mean by 'footwork' because I am having a difficult time following what you are saying here.

[Faux Newbie]

Since you do not practice WC, maybe it would help if you define what you mean by 'footwork' because I am having a difficult time following what you are saying here.

Sure.It's basic stuff. If throwing an attack that is to land at the moment you step into range, so not stepping in and then attacking, but stepping in to attack at the moment your step brings you in range as part of the step, a fighting style's power generation tends to not sacrifice balance issues in order to generate power, because this can put you in a bad situation.

So, using the boxing example, if stepping in and crossing after a jab, they use a relatively wide stance, not having their feet in one line with the opponent, because then the torque would destabilize their stance and leave them vulnerable.

If a person works stationary power generation exercises but does not train the same power generation with steps that it works well with, when they do move trying to use it, it is very likely that they will have issues that force them to either fudge the overall step and power generation, or be put in a bad spot. By matching them early, they quickly realize things like that they lean slightly forward on a turn which destabilized their rotation, or lurching forward and having a moment where they are sitting ducks due to weight distribution issues, things like this. Less likelihood of training a compromised version in order to make up for errors that the stepping drills could solve.

[JPinAZ]

Nice to know we agree. Making sure one has been able to exploit the ground reaction force, that is having a good connection to the ground, also seems to meet with agreement by all.

Not sure I follow, as I thought I was agreeing with what Wayfaring was saying which is who I quoted in my reply. Unless you are trying to imply some connection you see we may have now that you didn't think existed before?

FWIW, I've never argued that connecting of the major joints isn't important, as I see it existing in all good WCK. It's a concept that was introduced to me very early on in both lineages of WC I've studied and is basic WC mechanics (or should be). If that is what you are referring too, then yes, we most surely agree!
I don't want to take this thread too off topic and already regret that I am going to bring it up, but one part I don't agree with is the un-ending 7 bows stuff that gets blasted into every thread here for the past few years, as I think the 7th bow (the foot) is way off the mark. It is already covered by the ankle joint and is totally missing the link between the upper and lower parts of the body - the spine.

[Faux Newbie]

Not sure I follow, as I thought I was agreeing with what Wayfaring was saying which is who I quoted in my reply. Unless you are trying to imply some connection you see we may have now that you didn't think existed before?

He was agreeing with what you were saying, regardless of who it was focused on.

FWIW, I've never argued that connecting of the major joints isn't important, as I see it existing in all good WCK. It's a concept that was introduced to me very early on in both lineages of WC I've studied and is basic WC mechanics (or should be). If that is what you are referring too, then yes, we most surely agree!
I don't want to take this thread too off topic and already regret that I am going to bring it up, but one part I don't agree with is the un-ending 7 bows stuff that gets blasted into every thread here for the past few years, as I think the 7th bow (the foot) is way off the mark. It is already covered by the ankle joint and is totally missing the link between the upper and lower parts of the body - the spine.

Interesting. Not including the spine is something I would find problematic, especially since it literally bows.

[JPinAZ]

Sure.It's basic stuff. If throwing an attack that is to land at the moment you step into range, so not stepping in and then attacking, but stepping in to attack at the moment your step brings you in range as part of the step, a fighting style's power generation tends to not sacrifice balance issues in order to generate power, because this can put you in a bad situation.

So, using the boxing example, if stepping in and crossing after a jab, they use a relatively wide stance, not having their feet in one line with the opponent, because then the torque would destabilize their stance and leave them vulnerable.

I appreciate your boxing analogy and also agree with the idea of a boxer not stepping in with feet in one line to an opponent. But then, I don't think functional WC does that either. Are you implying this is how you understand WC to work? If so, maybe you need more face-time with WC FWIW, in HFY, we always avoid have our lead foot anywhere inside/between our opponent's feet as it typically gives up leverage or any positional advantage as well as the things you mentioned.

The issue I have with using non-WC arts to discuss WC mechanics is WC doesn't operate like most other arts. For one example: for the most part, WC doesn't look to strike from outside using footwork. WC looks to bridge and close the gap to gain a position of advantage to our opponent prior to using our short range striking with equal reach with both hands. Boxing doesn't do this. It typically looks to strike form a longer range using rotational power generation that doesn't allow for WC's ideas of simultaneous offense/defense and equal reach with both hands. Yes, boxers do fight closer in as well, but again, not with WC's ideas of efficiency & economy of motion in mind.

If a person works stationary power generation exercises but does not train the same power generation with steps that it works well with, when they do move trying to use it, it is very likely that they will have issues that force them to either fudge the overall step and power generation, or be put in a bad spot. By matching them early, they quickly realize things like that they lean slightly forward on a turn which destabilized their rotation, or lurching forward and having a moment where they are sitting ducks due to weight distribution issues, things like this. Less likelihood of training a compromised version in order to make up for errors that the stepping drills could solve.

This makes sense to me and I agree 100%! so not sure I see your point as don't see anyone here advocating only doing stationary power generation exercises and not trying it with footwork as well (?)

[Hendrik]

as I think the 7th bow (the foot) is way off the mark. It is already covered by the ankle joint .



Feet bow is feet bow. Ankle joint is a different thing and has different function.

Ankle does not cover feet bow.



In fact, feet bow were deliberately missed out to block one from develop the advance handling. It is law of physics, the feet bow is the coupling between body and ground. Those who needs to issue force flow needs to get the seventh bow or feet bow master.








and is totally missing the link between the upper and lower parts of the body - the spine.



Unless one can handling the spine join by join. As in the emei 12 zhuang using the snake slide worm move technology, beginner or those who are not family with ones body rather distribute the handling of power in the seven bows. Otherwise, it is trouble which lead to causing disk damage.



Seven bows is not a philosophy or theory it is basic human force handling mechanics.

[Hendrik]

I will say from the outset that I am sad and embarrassed to report that I recently badly hurt someone when they asked me to demonstrate comparatively short range power generation, despite the large stack of books and pads I used to offer some measure of protection in addition to, I thought at the time, not putting much into the strike.

Anyone that is familiar with 'Newton's cradle' will perhaps appreciate, as I now do, how disingenuous some of the demonstrations of wing chun's penetrative strikes are. The gentleman I hurt ended up with a bruised lung and a suspected fractured rib, so I do caution against demonstrations of that type.


I always warn wcners to not do such a demo.
1. It proof nothing. 2. It harm the opponent.



When I try to explain things by using a yoga ball to cusion a lite strike , many make joke at me. But really, if one can penetrate a three feet diameter yoga ball with light touch what is not already shown? People usually talk about scientific, but how scientific is the type of gung-ho demo like Bruce Lee? It is just absurd, not concerning the others.

As for those who is taking punch for the demo, how is one going to cure them if internal injury is caused? In ancient Chinese, one needs to take massage and taking herb to open up the stagnation cause by strike even if it is not causing serious internal issue such as the above on lung and ribs.

Are you going to leave your students or friends a life time internal problem? Who is going to responsible for it?


Just to share with you guy, I know guy who fight in kyokushin tournament even though did not get ko but take punches . Cause chest area injury And never got cure even with western or Chinese dit da medicine , and after decades has to study the six healing sound to clear the internal injury. That is how serious it is.


So, it is your choice if you want to get into these type of inch punch demo with phone books...etc. I just think it is looking for trouble. What if you hit some ones heart or lung, cause issue and he has to live with it for his whole life?


For the person above, my advise is in addition to western doctor, one needs to go see a good Chinese dit da doctor ASAP, there are things the western medicine think it is ok but causing long term issue in real life is not threat.

[LFJ]

Those who needs to issue force flow needs to get the seventh bownor feet bow master.

Seventh bownor?