Socrates practiced QiGong!

[rett2]

Very interesting thanks.

OK so speaking of crystals, lattice structures, semiperiodicity... here's another picture for the "quiz"

[RenDaHai]

@ Wenshu,

Fascinating stuff, thanks for posting.

@ Rett,

I suppose this diagram goes with the others from the previous question. Where previously we had DNA as this incredibly stable form of information storing with microtubules we have a self organising structure that (according to this Orch-OR theory) can actually exhibit consciousness. This makes it the top of the hierarchy so far!

(The image is of a microtubule containing tubulin subunits, each of which capable of being closed or open [white and black respectively]. The ability remain undecided, without being reduced to a definite state by the action of the environment allows long enough for the objective reduction [OR] to come into force. I suppose the structure facilitates this)

[rett2]

Yes! top of the hierarchy so far, and I also thinks it's cool that (if correct) the local interactions essentially mean that it functions as a cellular automata (like Conway's game of life) to perform computation. Of course this is still at the level of Hamaroff's (and others’) pre-Orch OR work with the microtubules.

Here's an interesting interview with Hamaroff. The interviewer Nikola Danaylev also does a great job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUVot-4GPM

Towards the end he speculates a bit about stuff like qi, out of body experiences (as a clinical anaesthesiologist he's been present when people have them), psi phenomena, rebirth (Socrates believed in rebirth) and other stuff that tends to make me skeptical especially when connected with quantum mechanics. But who knows? The whole interview is quite thought provoking.

[rett2]

Here's the researcher whose work is mentioned as something of a validation in the review of the admittedly nutty sounding Orch OR theory. Now I'm still skeptical (I think I saw Chopra's name pop up in association) but his c.v. looks flawless to me.

http://www.anirbanlab.co.nr/

Whether Orch OR turns out to be right or not, its basic premise seems like the least nutty attempt to relate awareness and physicality

Precursors of consciousness have always been in the universe; biology evolved a mechanism to convert conscious precursors to actual consciousness. This is the view implied by Whitehead (1929; 1933) and taken in the Penrose-Hameroff theory of 'orchestrated objective reduction' ('Orch OR'). Precursors of consciousness, presumably with proto-experiential qualities, are proposed to exist as the potential ingredients of actual consciousness, the physical basis of these proto-conscious elements not necessarily being part of our current theories of the laws of the universe (Penrose and Hameroff, 1995; Hameroff and Penrose, 1996a; 1996b).

[wenshu]

with microtubules we have a self organising structure that (according to this Orch-OR theory) can actually exhibit consciousness.

I think you're mistaking the trees for the forest.

Illustrates the problem I have been trying to point out, forum displays of deep technical concepts and theories are exciting validation but its far to easy to muddle things with half assed assumptions.

If I was to focus on an oversimplification of ORCH OR it would be that each brain cell is in fact a brain per se. Think of a microprocessor where each transistor is itself another microprocessor (turtles all the way down). Unfortunately this doesn't account for process and integration.

2.3. Consciousness and dendritic integration
Neuronal integration is commonly approximated as linear summation of dendritic/somatic membrane potentials (Fig. 2a). However actual integration is not passive, actively involving complex processing [44–46]. Dendritic–somatic membranes generate local field potentials (‘LFPs’) that give rise to the electro-encephalogram (EEG), including coher- ent gamma synchrony, the best measurable neural correlate of consciousness (‘NCC’ [47,48]). Anesthetic molecules selectively erase consciousness, acting on post-synaptic dendrites and soma, with little or no effects on axonal fir- ing capabilities. Arguably, dendritic/somatic integration is most closely related to consciousness, with axonal firings serving to convey outputs of conscious (or non-conscious) processes to control behavior. But even complex, active integration in Hodgkin–Huxley neurons would, apart from an entirely probabilistic (random) input, be completely algorithmic and deterministic, leaving no apparent place for a free will aspect of consciousness.

3.2. Microtubule information processing
After Sherrington’s broad observation in 1957 about the cytoskeleton as a cellular nervous system, Atema [65] proposed that tubulin conformational changes propagate as signals along microtubules. Hameroff and Watt [66] sug- gested that distinct tubulin dipoles and conformational states—mechanical changes in protein shape—could represent information, with MT lattices acting as two-dimensional Boolean switching matrices with input/output computa- tion occurring via MAPs. MT information processing has also been viewed in the context of cellular (‘molecular’) automata (‘microtubule automata’) in which tubulin dipole and conformational states interact with neighbor tubulin states in hexagonal MT lattices by dipole couplings, synchronized by biomolecular coherence as proposed by Fröhlich [67–71].

[RenDaHai]

I think you're mistaking the trees for the forest.

Illustrates the problem I have been trying to point out, forum displays of deep technical concepts and theories are exciting validation but its far to easy to muddle things with half assed assumptions.

If I was to focus on an oversimplification of ORCH OR it would be that each brain cell is in fact a brain per se. Think of a microprocessor where each transistor is itself another microprocessor (turtles all the way down). Unfortunately this doesn't account for process and integration.

Yeah, thrashing out Quantum physics on a kung fu forum is probably going to get embarrassing quickly. Still we can talk about some of the more well known concepts a little bit.

The paper is interdisciplinary, I suppose depending on your area of interest you will see the concept framed in those terms.

One of the themes in the paper you posted was that a moment conscious like experience or proto-consciousness is achieved during the process of objective-reduction (OR) of a wave-function right? Now, the way I understand it is this won't happen if the wave-function is reduced because of interaction with the environment. In order to reach the threshold where OR occurs a certain minimum amount of time is required. So the wave-function must be somehow isolated from the environment for at least this amount of time, to remain in a kind of quantum limbo of undecidedness. It is in the nature of the structure of these microtubules and tubulin that allows for this to happen. The mechanism I confess I didn't get, something about quantum entanglement of pi-electrons?

So in these kind of structures we are getting access to whatever the non-computable process is that decides the objective reduction. {They mentioned something about quantum gravity coming into play above planck scale geometry but that is quite far beyond my understanding, PlanckLength:Proton::Human:MilkyWay }

So these microtubules seem to represent the spark of consciousness being as they are able to orchestrate objective reduction.

Its the physics of the Orch-OR process I am interested in. If either of you have a good grasp on the physics here I have a lot of questions I'd like to ask about it.

In the meantime I'll stick with Aristotle, more my level....

[wenshu]

Quite possibly. The paper is quite interdisciplinary, I suppose depending on your area of interest you will see the concept framed in those terms.

One of the themes in the paper you posted was that a moment conscious like experience or proto-consciousness is achieved during the process of objective-reduction (OR) of a wave-function right? Now, the way I understand it is this won't happen if the wave-function is reduced because of interaction with the environment. In order to reach the threshold where OR occurs a certain minimum amount of time is required. So the wave-function must be somehow isolated from the environment for at least this amount of time, to remain in a kind of quantum limbo of undecidedness. It is in the nature of the structure of these microtubules and tubulin that allows for this to happen. The mechanism I confess I didn't get, something about quantum entanglement of pi-electrons?

So in these kind of structures we are getting access to whatever the non-computable process is that decides the objective reduction. {They mentioned something about quantum gravity coming into play above planck scale geometry but that is quite far beyond my understanding, PlanckLength:Proton::Human:MilkyWay }

So these microtubules seem to represent the spark of consciousness being as they are able to orchestrate objective reduction.

Its the physics of the Orch-OR process I am interested in. If either of you have a good grasp on the physics here I have a lot of questions I'd like to ask about it.

In the meantime I'll stick with Aristotle, more my level....

Quantum mechanics is impressive but Orchestrated Objective-Reduction takes a giant dump on Aristotle's face, philosophically speaking of course.

The Penrose–Lucas argument states that, because humans are capable of knowing the truth of Gödel-unprovable statements, human thought is necessarily non-computable.[23]

In 1931, mathematician and logician Kurt Gödel proved that any effectively generated theory capable of proving basic arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. Furthermore, he showed that any such theory also including a statement of its own consistency is inconsistent. A key element of the proof is the use of Gödel numbering to construct a "Gödel sentence" for the theory, which encodes a statement of its own incompleteness, e.g. "This theory can't assert the truth of this statement." This statement is either true but unprovable (incompleteness) or false and provable (inconsistency). An analogous statement has been used to show that humans are subject to the same limits as machines.[24]

However, in his first book on consciousness, The Emperor's New Mind (1989), Penrose made Gödel's theorem the basis of what quickly became an intensely controversial claim.[23] He argued that while a formal proof system cannot prove its own inconsistency, Gödel-unprovable results are provable by human mathematicians. He takes this disparity to mean that human mathematicians are not describable as formal proof systems, and are therefore running a non-computable algorithm.

The wiki page offers an effective abstract of the physical model as well:

Orch-OR posits that consciousness is based on non-computable quantum processing performed by qubits formed collectively on the microtubules of the cells, a process significantly amplified in the neurons.[4] The qubits are based on oscillating dipoles forming superposed resonance rings in helical pathways throughout microtubule lattices. The oscillations are either electric, due to charge separation from London forces, or most favorably magnetic, due to electron spin — and possibly also due to nuclear spins (which can remain isolated for longer periods of time), and occur in gigahertz, megahertz and kilohertz frequency ranges.[1][5] The orchestration refers to the hypothetical process by which connective proteins, such as microtubule-associated proteins (MAPs), influence or orchestrate the state reduction of the qubits by modifying the spacetime-separation of their superimposed states.[6] The later is based on Penrose's objective collapse theory for interpreting quantum mechanics, which postulates the existence of an objective threshold governing the collapse of quantum-states, related to the difference of the space-time curvature of these states in the fine scale structure of the universe.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchest...tive_reduction

[wenshu]

Precursors of consciousness have always been in the universe; biology evolved a mechanism to convert conscious precursors to actual consciousness. This is the view implied by Whitehead (1929; 1933) and taken in the Penrose-Hameroff theory of 'orchestrated objective reduction' ('Orch OR'). Precursors of consciousness, presumably with proto-experiential qualities, are proposed to exist as the potential ingredients of actual consciousness, the physical basis of these proto-conscious elements not necessarily being part of our current theories of the laws of the universe (Penrose and Hameroff, 1995; Hameroff and Penrose, 1996a; 1996b).

I don't know where I read this earlier either in the paper or a wikihole, but the idea that consciousness is a fundamental physical law or structure of the universe (like gravity or electromagnetism) and the human brain evolved to take advantage of it. The precursor of consciousness is the Big Bang.

[wenshu]

I couldn't find anything about Empedocles or any of the other pre Socratics practicing breathing and stretching and I'm not about to bust out fucking diogenes.

[RenDaHai]

I couldn't find anything about Empedocles or any of the other pre Socratics practicing breathing and stretching and I'm not about to bust out fucking diogenes.

I'm sure theres not much, there are a few references to Socrates acting strangely like this.

They talked about Gymnastics a lot, it would be interesting to know exactly what they meant by 'Gymnastics' and what practices this entailed. I am sure there were many divisions. If there were any more qigong like exercises I'm sure it would be considered part of gymnastics.

I mean, the Academy was a Gymnasium right? In one of the dialogues Socrates refers to Gymnastics and Medicine as the two crafts of taking care of the body, where as Cosmetics and Pastry Baking were their illusory counterparts, flattery, looking like they were good for you but not really (medicine of the time seemed to involve prescribing diet as a major component).

There seems to be only one treatise on ancient Gymnastics, 'Gymnasticus' by Plilostratus, but its a lot later than Socrates (c. 220 A.D). I can't seem to find a free translation.

[rett2]

I don't know where I read this earlier either in the paper or a wikihole, but the idea that consciousness is a fundamental physical law or structure of the universe (like gravity or electromagnetism) and the human brain evolved to take advantage of it. The precursor of consciousness is the Big Bang.

As I understand it that's not the idea being expressed there. They are talking not about the "ultimate" precurser of consciousness in the universe, but about proto-conscious events, blips of qualia, precursors in the plural. These are occuring all the time, everywhere that a superposition is resolved. But they are weak and disordered and add up at best to a kind of static. Only through orchestration do these become intense and form patterns that can resemble our sophisticated sensory perceptions, not to mention conscious cognitive activity. (Like going from a dim staticky tv picture to a bright coherent picture)

[rett2]

Penrose runs through the basics of the physics during around the second quarter of this presentation (and here and there in the rest):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5XY...dex=14&list=WL