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    Socrates practiced QiGong!

    'Socrates habitually practiced this: he would stand in one fixed position, all day and all night, from early dawn until the next sunrise, open-eyed, motionless, in his very tracks and with face and eyes riveted to the same spot in deep meditation, as if his mind and soul had been, as it were, withdrawn from his body. His temperance also is said to have been so great, that he lived almost the whole of his life with health unimpaired. Even amid the havoc of that plague which, at the beginning of the Peloponnesian War, devastated Athens, by temperance and abstemious habits he is said to have avoided the ill-effects of indulgence and retained physical vigour.' --- Aulus Gellius, Attic Nights

    Certainly this practice will sound familiar to many of us. I can't imagine any of you have not heard of Socrates but even if you have not, rest assured his influence on your life has been great. Of most renown of all the ancients, second perhaps only to Pythagoras, the first man to call himself a philosopher (Pythagoras who incidentally was vegetarian and believed in reincarnation, even that he could remember his past lives).

    Its just awesome to find these little things sometimes.... It thought I would share it with you all.

    A practice then that has been valued by the wisest across all the ancient world. Well then, we would be foolish to dismiss it.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

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    Socrates encouraged knowing the physical limits of the self and building the body to great strength and to test your mettle.
    Now the only issue is...did he really exist outside of Plato's writings and others who came after and read or studied Plato and Aristotle.
    he probably did. It would have been great if he actually wrote something, but legend has it, he was against the use of writing for remembering things. He though that the alphabet rotted the mind and made us stupid. lol. Carry that forward eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    It would have been great if he actually wrote something, but legend has it, he was against the use of writing for remembering things. He though that the alphabet rotted the mind and made us stupid. lol. Carry that forward eh?
    Hehe, its a good point.

    But of course he is still right..... Memory.... it is everything. Think about matter.... Utterly deterministic. One look at its inertia, its movement, and we can deduce where it has been. But organised matter, organic? It has free reign over choice. Why? Memory. We have memory.... Think of a headache, an hour is bearable but the same headache over a week? Unbearable. Nothing has changed in the instantaneous sensation, only the memory of its duration. Memory modifies everything. It exponentially increases sensations. The fact we recognise objects is due to memory, what conditions our decisions is memory. Memory is the very bridge between time and space, between mind and matter. Of course Socrates thought it was important. The more events you sum into consciousness the greater your wisdom. Memory is everything. A large measure of the ills of society are the things with short memory.... like politics.

    Everything we create these days are devices of convenience.... By reducing our memory we reduce our possible action over things and so reduce our measure of free will. Perhaps we will become unconscious automatons, and our convenience devices will be our downfall and the alphabet will indeed rot our minds!
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Hehe, its a good point.

    But of course he is still right..... Memory.... it is everything. Think about matter.... Utterly deterministic. One look at its inertia, its movement, and we can deduce where it has been. But organised matter, organic? It has free reign over choice. Why? Memory. We have memory.... Think of a headache, an hour is bearable but the same headache over a week? Unbearable. Nothing has changed in the instantaneous sensation, only the memory of its duration. Memory modifies everything. It exponentially increases sensations. The fact we recognise objects is due to memory, what conditions our decisions is memory. Memory is the very bridge between time and space, between mind and matter. Of course Socrates thought it was important. The more events you sum into consciousness the greater your wisdom. Memory is everything. A large measure of the ills of society are the things with short memory.... like politics.

    Everything we create these days are devices of convenience.... By reducing our memory we reduce our possible action over things and so reduce our measure of free will. Perhaps we will become unconscious automatons, and our convenience devices will be our downfall and the alphabet will indeed rot our minds!
    Incoherent rambling scale 1-10; your level is... Deepak Chopra...

  5. #5
    Saw that one coming.


    I was going to comment on the inertia thing, but I lost the will go there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    I was going to comment on the inertia thing, but I lost the will go there.
    Really, what about 'inertia' confuses you?
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Everything we create these days are devices of convenience.... By reducing our memory we reduce our possible action over things and so reduce our measure of free will. Perhaps we will become unconscious automatons, and our convenience devices will be our downfall and the alphabet will indeed rot our minds!
    An argument has emerged recently that 'devices of convenience' remove the need to remember phone numbers, social graphs and other superfluous drains on our active short term memory and reasoning. The resulting surplus of cognitive capacity can then be focused on the really important things like self indulgent pseudo philosophy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    An argument has emerged recently that 'devices of convenience' remove the need to remember phone numbers, social graphs and other superfluous drains on our active short term memory and reasoning. The resulting surplus of cognitive capacity can then be focused on the really important things like self indulgent pseudo philosophy.
    Really? Well I'd like to read that argument, it would be a good one to laugh at. Imagine at its extreme no one ever learns their discipline, they just get very good at interpreting wikipedia?

    You are correct though that self indulgent pseudo-philosophy is certainly one of the really important things. Imagine again a world where only the 'professional' philosophers were allowed to philosophise? Or a world where people cannot gratify their desire to philosophy by discussing it in public forums, or indeed have no desire to philosophy.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Imagine at its extreme no one ever learns their discipline
    So reading Plato is a discipline now? Look I don't expect you to understand but the subtext of the argument is efficiency. Specifically the efficiency of executive function.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    they just get very good at interpreting wikipedia?
    The technical jargon is 'critical thinking'. Considering how desperately you're signaling the pursuit of a liberal arts education you should probably be able to make that distinction. Or maybe the grad student teaching your intro philosophy seminar was too busy chasing coed tail (I hear that's the perk of a career in liberal arts academia) to cover that section.

    Now if I may,

    You spent half a dozen years immersed in Chinese buddhist philosophy and you come back to start studying Plato & Socrates? Shit on my tits has no one told you about Thales, Empodocles, Anaxagoras, Anaximander, Parmenides, Heraclitus?



    The pre-Socratics are the closest you'll ever come to a western analogue to Eastern philosophy, sheeeeeeeeit give any pre-Socratic philosopher a Chinese name and you would hardly be able to tell the difference.

    "Anaximander of Miletus, the first philosophical author of the ancients, writes exactly as one expects a typical philosopher to write when alienating demands have not yet robbed him of his innocence and naivete. That is to say, in graven stylized letters, sentence after sentence the witness to fresh illumination, each the expression of time spent in sublime meditation. Each single thought and its form is a milestone upon the path to the highest wisdom. Thus, with lapidary impressiveness, Anaximander says upon one occasion, "Where the source of things is, to that place they must also pass away, according to necessity, for they must pay penance and be judged for their injustices, in accordance with the ordinance of time."



    Enigmatic proclamation of a true pessimist, oracular legend over the boundary stone of Greek philosophy: how shall we interpret you?

    The only serious moralist of our century in Parergis (Vol. II, Chapter 12) charges us with a similar reflection.

    "The proper measure with which to judge any and all human beings is that they are really creatures who should not exist at all and who are doing penance for their lives by their manifold sufferings and their death. What could we expect of such creatures? Are we not all sinners under sentence of death? We do penance for having been born, first by living and then by dying."


    A man who can read such a lesson in the physiognomy of our common human lot, who can recognize the basic poor quality of any and all human life in the very fact that not one of us will bear close scrutiny (although our era, infected with the biographical plague, seems to think quite different and statelier thoughts as to the dignity of man), a man who, like Schopenhauer, has heard upon the heights of India's clear air the holy word of the moral value of existence - such a man will find it difficult to keep from indulging in a highly anthropomorphic metaphor. He will extract that melancholy doctrine from its application to human life and project it unto the general quality of all existence. It may not be logical, but it certainly is human, to view now, together with Anaximander, all coming-to-be as though it were an illegitimate emancipation from eternal being, a wrong for which destruction is the only penance. Everything that has ever come-to-be again passes away, whether we think of human life or of water or of hot and cold. Wherever definite qualities are perceivable, we can prophesy, upon the basis of enormously extensive experience, the passing away of these qualities. Never, in other words, can a being which possesses definite qualities or consists of such be the origin or first principle of things. That which truly is, concludes Anaximander, cannot possess definite characteristics, or it would come-to-be and pass away like all the other things. In order that coming-to-be shall not cease, primal being must be indefinite. The immortality and everlastingness of primal being does not lie in its infinitude or its inexhaustibility, as the commentators of Anaximander generally assume, but in the fact that it is devoid of definite qualities that would lead to its passing. Hence its name, the indefinite. Thus named, the primal being is superior to that which comes to be, insuring thereby eternity and the unimpeded course of coming-to-be. This ultimate unity of the indefinite, the womb of all things, can, it is true, be designated by human speech only as a negative, as something to which the existent world of coming-to-be can give no predicate. We may look upon it as the equal of the Kantian ding an sich.

    Now anyone who can quarrel as to what sort of primal stuff this could have been, whether an intermediate substance between air and water or perhaps between air and fire, has certainly not understood our philosopher at all. This is equally true of those who ask themselves seriously whether Anaximander thought of his primal substance as perhaps a mixture of all existent materials. Instead, we must direct our glance to that lapidary sentence which we cited earlier, to the place where we may learn that Anaximander was no longer dealing with the question of the origin of this world in a purely physical way. Rather, when he saw in the multiplicity of things that have come-to-be a sum of injustices that must be expiated, he grasped with bold fingers the tangle of the profoundest problem in ethics. He was the first Greek to do so. How can anything pass away which has a right to be? Whence that restless, ceaseless coming-into-being and giving birth, whence that grimace of painful disfiguration on the countenance of nature, whence the neverending dirge in all the realms of existence? From this world of injustice, of insolent apostasy from the primeval oneness of all things, Anaximander flees into a metaphysical fortress from which he leans out, letting his gaze sweep the horizon.

    At last, after long pensive silence, he puts a question to all creatures: What is your existence worth? And if it is worthless, why are you here? Your guilt, I see, causes you to tarry in your existence with your death, you have to expiate it. Look how your earth is withering, how your seas are diminishing and drying up; the seashell on the mountain top can show you how much has dried up already. Even now, fire is destroying your world; some day it will go up in fumes and smoke. But ever and anew, another such world of ephemerality will construct itself. Who is there that could redeem you from the curse of coming-to-be?



    A man who poses questions such as these, whose thinking in its upward flight kept breaking all empirical ropes, catching, instead, at superlunary ones-such a man very likely does not welcome an ordinary mode of living. We can easily credit the tradition that he walked the earth clad in an especially dignified garment and displayed a truly tragic pride in his gestures and customs of daily living. He lived as he wrote; he spoke as solemnly as he dressed; he lifted his hands and placed his feet as though this existence were a tragic drama into which he had been born to play a hero. In all these things, he was the great model for Empedocles. His fellow citizens elected him to lead a colony of emigrants. Perhaps they were glad to honor him and get rid of him at the same time. His thought, too, emigrated and founded colonies. In Ephesus and in Elea, people could not rid themselves of it, and if they could not make up their minds to remain where it left them, they also knew that they h ad been led there by it, and that it was from there they would travel on without it.

    Thales demonstrated the need to simplify the realm of the many, to reduce it to the mere unfolding or masking of the one and only existent quality, water. Anaximander takes two steps beyond him. For the first, he asks himself: How is the many possible if there is such a thing as the eternal one? And he takes his answer from the self-contradictory, self-consuming and negating character of the many. Its existence becomes for him a moral phenomenon. It is not justified, but expiates itself forever through its passing.

    But then he sees another question: Why hasn't all that came-to-be passed away long since, since a whole eternity of time has passed? Whence the ever-renewed stream of coming-to-be? And from this question he can save himself only by a mystic possibility: eternal coming-to-be can have its origin only in eternal being; the conditions for the fall from being to coming-to-be in injustice are forever the same; the constellation of things is such that no end can be envisaged for the emergence of individual creatures from the womb of the indefinite. Here Anaximander stopped, which means he remained in the deep shadows which lie like gigantic ghosts upon the mountains of this world view. The closer men wanted to get to the problem of how the definite could ever fall from the indefinite, the ephemeral from the eternal, the unjust from the just, the deeper grew the night."

    TLDR; because nietzsche
    Last edited by wenshu; 07-09-2014 at 05:01 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    One look at its inertia, its movement, and we can deduce where it has been.


    It's just that there are a ton of caveats to such a statement. Know what I'm sayin...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    It's just that there are a ton of caveats to such a statement. Know what I'm sayin...
    Yes, yes there are. But given as its the qigong section of a kung fu forum, I was not expecting to be subject to much rigour. That and i was on my 5th night cap while writing

    I'll clarify;

    Inertia as momentum; p=mv, since v is a vector quantity knowing an objects momentum we have some information as to the direction it is moving in and hence may be able to deduce something of where it has come from.

    Inertia as a quality of matter being 'inert', i.e will not make spontaneous movements but rather will keep doing as its doing unless acted on by an external force.

    As opposed to organised or 'organic' matter which stores energy up to be released in decisive actions. Its actions can not be deduced so simply from its immediate influences since you must also sum the influences from its entire memory.

    Hence memory being the major factor contributing to the 'free will' of an organic in the initial comment. As opposed to the 'determinism' of inert matter.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 07-06-2014 at 12:44 PM.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Yes, yes there are. But given as its the qigong section of a kung fu forum, I was not expecting to be subject to much rigour. That and i was on my 5th night cap while writing

    I'll clarify;

    Inertia as momentum; p=mv, since v is a vector quantity knowing an objects momentum we have some information as to the direction it is moving in and hence may be able to deduce something of where it has come from.

    Inertia as a quality of matter being 'inert', i.e will not make spontaneous movements but rather will keep doing as its doing unless acted on by an external force.

    As opposed to organised or 'organic' matter which stores energy up to be released in decisive actions. Its actions can not be deduced so simply from its immediate influences since you must also sum the influences from its entire memory.

    Hence memory being the major factor contributing to 'free will' in the initial comment.


    Yeah, I'm just sayin... If you build a robot to kick a ball in a vacuum at a specific angle and velocity, we can narrow down it's path with incredible accuracy and precision. Large body cruising through space, not so easy. I'm amazed at how well it's done though. So many unknown variables. Were there any external forces we aren't aware of, were their any collisions, was there a change in mass etc etc... We know momentum is conserved, but we can't always account for everything. Still, with a **** ton of observation, you can partially piece together an amazing puzzle. But I have too much to say about this topic to write it all out.


    Anyways. how do you know you have free will? That is not a given, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Yes, yes there are. But given as its the qigong section of a kung fu forum, I was not expecting to be subject to much rigour. That and i was on my 5th night cap while writing

    I'll clarify;

    Inertia as momentum; p=mv, since v is a vector quantity knowing an objects momentum we have some information as to the direction it is moving in and hence may be able to deduce something of where it has come from.

    Inertia as a quality of matter being 'inert', i.e will not make spontaneous movements but rather will keep doing as its doing unless acted on by an external force.

    As opposed to organised or 'organic' matter which stores energy up to be released in decisive actions. Its actions can not be deduced so simply from its immediate influences since you must also sum the influences from its entire memory.

    Hence memory being the major factor contributing to the 'free will' of an organic in the initial comment. As opposed to the 'determinism' of inert matter.
    Inertia is not the same thing as momentum. Nor is energy either of the previous two. Organic matter isn't called organic because its organised dinkus. Its matter based in carbon chemistry. ALL matter is organised for that...matter. You also butchered kinetic vs potential energy.

    Does carbon dioxide have free will? Because translating that nonsense up above, this is what you get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKM View Post
    I have always been interested in the Spartans, their training progression, and skill sets. As much is unknown about them as is known about them and the best we can do is guess as to what their training requirements were. Perhaps Nei Gung was one of them.
    Perhaps, though the Spartans were very harsh in comparison to the Athenians.

    All I know of their life is in Plutarchs 'Parallel Lives'. We can't know how true an account this is.

    Lycurges was the lawgiver of Sparta, and this is a short account of the laws (all from Plutarch);


    The Laws of the spartans were forbidden to be written down, so that everyone might learn them by heart.

    The Spartan Kings were the successors of Hercules.

    They were communist. The land of Sparta was divided equally among them.

    Gold and silver were abolished. The currency was a heavy and ugly piece of iron. So heavy that it could not be hoarded or stolen or traded in secret. It could not be used to purchase foreign luxuries. They took away from wealth the property of being coveted. Wealth obtained no honour or respect.

    Superfluous arts and products were banned, so spartan industry excelled at making useful things only. The furniture even could only be smoothed by the saw.

    All the men were not allowed to eat at home but had to eat communally and the same food. So no-one rich could make use of their wealth.

    Walking at night they were forbidden lamps, so they may learn to march in the dark.

    They were forbidden from making war often with the same enemy, lest they should inadvertently instruct them in the art of war.

    The women were trained in running and wrestling that they might bear stronger children.

    They would meet their wives in dark rooms and after making love would return to the barracks and sleep on wooden planks. Some had children without ever seeing their wife. Marriages were arranged with a view to strong children and wives were shared if it was thought another man could produce a strong child.

    Children were the property of the community and were everyones responsibility.

    When a boy was born it was submitted to judgement, if weak it was thrown into a deep chasm, it not being in the public interest to bring it up.

    New borns were bathed in wine not water, it was thought to make them strong.

    At seven children were removed to military schools. The strongest was made captain and the others had to submit to his command.

    At 12 they were forbidden normal clothes and given just one cloak to suit all seasons.

    The boys were given almost no food and were encouraged to steal it. If they were caught they were whipped severely, not for stealing, but for stealing clumsily enough to be caught. On story relates to a boy having stolen a fox, he hid it under his cloak where it tore out his bowls with his teeth and claws. The boy made no noise so as not to be discovered stealing, and died there on the spot silent.

    In battle food was more and rules relaxed so that the spartans were the only men on earth to whom war was a vacation.

    They banned foreigners from their country so they could not be infected with bad habits.

    All manual work was done by their slaves, free time was spent training.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

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    All is mind. - Buddha

    he got that right for sure!
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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