Socrates practiced QiGong!

[wenshu]

I have the greatest respect for both science and for introspective practices. As far as I'm concerned they are equally valid ways of approaching an ultimately unfathomable reality, but they have different purposes. Science does not erode, damage or take away anything from introspective practice. What science can do is take away social capital from religious or philosophical figures who base their power or status on dogmas about how the world is constructed.

Determining structures by X-ray crystallography involves processes where electromagnatic radation is viewed as quantized particles (the generation of x-rays) and as waves (diffraction). Both are useful approximations, but the underlying reality is unfathomable to use. We can't picture the wave function (unsquared), as it is inamenable to our intuition. By analogy, I suggest that experience as we perceive it, and the models of experimental science are also equally valid ways of viewing reality that do not contradict one another. However that goes both ways. Meditators can't tell scientists what physical reality is composed of and how it works, and scientists cannot tell meditators what life means. (Not just meditators, but any thinking person in the arts and humanities or anyone just engaged with the quandries of life.)

Even if science measures the brain waves of meditators, or learns to model a human being down to tiniest level, it will never touch meaning and experience.

#truthfacts

Is the question to the meditator "What life means?" or should we start from something more immediately practical? The structure, composition, type and duration of thoughts. Science can't observe my mind, but I can. It just so happens that these observations are useless and cannot be aggregated into a meaningful model. This is irrelevant to the practitioner because the purpose initially is the physio-neurological adaptation that results from rigorous disciplining of the attention.

As Schrödinger observed, physical models exclude experience at the outset.

Schrodinger made quite a few startling observations about the very topics at hand. What is Life mentions aperiodic crystals + genetics, consciousness, and free will vs determinism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Life%3F

...living matter, while not eluding the "laws of physics" as established up to date, is likely to involve "other laws of physics" hitherto unknown, which however, once they have been revealed, will form just as integral a part of science as the former.

The only possible alternative is simply to keep to the immediate experience that consciousness is a singular of which the plural is unknown; that there is only one thing and that what seems to be a plurality is merely a series of different aspects of this one thing...

[rett2]

#truthfacts

Is the question to the meditator "What life means?" or should we start from something more immediately practical? The structure, composition, type and duration of thoughts. Science can't observe my mind, but I can. It just so happens that these observations are useless and cannot be aggregated into a meaningful model. This is irrelevant to the practitioner because the purpose initially is the physio-neurological adaptation that results from rigorous disciplining of the attention.

Yeah I agree, thanks for clarifying.

Meaning is something we ascribe to life. It's not an answer, like 42. It's about values, about firmly resolving to realize those values in practice, and about taking concrete steps to realize these values. Introspective practices like you describe can help us do this, even if our values are worldly things like family or meaningful work (including science) or many other things.

Often we have mental or emotional obstructions that prevent us from clarifying our values and putting them into action. I have many such obstructions. Meditative practices, or even just some of the "tricks" that meditation teachers give you for handling the mind, can help reduce the power these obstructions have over us.

If we decide we value something like ending suffering (the Buddhist goal) then I believe it would be very difficult to do this without rigorously applying an introspective practice. And then, just as you say, it's more important to work the practice, not search for theoretical answers.

Schrodinger made quite a few startling observations about the very topics at hand. What is Life mentions aperiodic crystals + genetics, consciousness, and free will vs determinism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Life%3F

Yeah he's an interesting figure. A quantitative natural scientist on par with Einstein, and also a pantheist who took inspiration from the Upanishads.

[Syn7]

Does anyone here think there is no benefit to the body and mind from doing something like yoga?

Despite my lack of belief in the so called spiritual connection, I do find many of these practices to be beneficial to my overall well being.

[David Jamieson]

Does anyone here think there is no benefit to the body and mind from doing something like yoga?

Despite my lack of belief in the so called spiritual connection, I do find many of these practices to be beneficial to my overall well being.

Yeah, the spiritual aspect I leave out as well. However, that's because of my own ignorance really having never had a spiritual experience per se.
I do find meditation and yoga and kung fu practice to be physically and mentally refreshing though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Does anyone here think there is no benefit to the body and mind from doing something like yoga?

Despite my lack of belief in the so called spiritual connection, I do find many of these practices to be beneficial to my overall well being.

I find yoga over rated or perhaps over "indulged" as a fad.

[Syn7]

I find yoga over rated or perhaps over "indulged" as a fad.

Yeah, when I said yoga I wondered if that comment was coming. I mean yoga the concept, not the self indulgent douchebag non gluten vegan electric car phenomenon that surrounds it in our culture. Same with kung fu. There is the fad then there is the good stuff. You can wear jammies and play studio warrior or you can actually train for real.

When criticizing tai chi(the more esoteric aspects), some people have asked me that if it wasn't as advertised then why do people who do it seem better off and live longer. My answer is that anyone doing fully extended movements covering most muscle groups while focusing their breath and mind will find benefit in that. I honestly don't think that the specific movements in any form have to be done as is. It's just that people are doing physical activity in such a manner that injury is far less likely yet physical enough to have a noticeable benefit. Know what I mean? The guy who walks 2 km everyday has a better chance at living a longer life with less injury than the guy eating chips watching reality tv. There is nothing mystical about that.

Why should it surprise people that western cultures of old had also realized that exercise like this can be a good thing?

Anyone who has tried it knows that stretching feels great and has many health benefits. The more muscle groups you target, the better you feel. Within reason, that is. I don't know where that line of diminishing returns lies, but I do know that I haven't found it myself. I always feel like I could stretch more, focus more.

[MarathonTmatt]

It's just that people are doing physical activity in such a manner that injury is far less likely yet physical enough to have a noticeable benefit. Know what I mean? The guy who walks 2 km everyday has a better chance at living a longer life with less injury than the guy eating chips watching reality tv. There is nothing mystical about that.

I like this post. You are totally right. Years ago at my old job (my full time job I had straight out of high school for 7-8 years), things could get repetitive there everyday. Everybody did a lot of overtime and it was physical work. Not as hard as construction or something like that, but still manual labor. And in retail (produce dept.- the fruit and veggie section at a very busy location and popular grocery chain) customers/ etc. can in fact get under people's skin sometimes. I would notice that several older guys I knew in the Meat dept. had surgery around their shoulder blades (rotator cuffs?) because of repetitive labor cutting meats over X number of years. Even one kid my age, and he was a hard-working tough kid from El Salvador, had to go to the hospital and get his spine injected with fluid at one point. (some of those produce boxes can be sort of/ kind of heavy, like potatos, and again there is the every-day repetition and overtime.) And in the retail, it is all about these merchants making capital (revenue- a profit.) They will cut corners in terms of when work-space and even workers is concerned, even when profits are going up and up, experiencing exponential growth each year. My old manager who hired me always complained that when the location opened, part of the space that was from the old grocery store at the same location was leased to a Wine and Spirits shop, instead of using the much-needed space for the grocery chain, because money talks. And sometimes it is that one customer that can make or break your day. When stocking up the sales floor, one is the perfect target for someone in a bad mood to unleash their frustrations upon. I always think back that when I was younger, and my mother was cleaning the house, say, the bathroom, and my brothers and I would run around and be obnoxious she would give us a piece of her mind and we would be banished to go outside. Yet if one is plugging away doing their work in a retail environment and someone is in a real bad mood, we have to kiss these people's butts or we lose our job. It just doesn't make any sense (well, I understand why, the company wants the customer coming back again and again to spend their money).

Anyway, like I touched on in an earlier post, I did a lot of hiking in the woods, working out, even trained for and ran the Boston Marathon to deal with stress, and to strengthen myself without limit. One of the people I worked with was a middle-aged martial artist who turned me on to the arts- he spent 3 years in China and the whole thing, he was really my first coach. I would work on my "single whip" technique while stacking bananas (pluck the stem from the box and palm it on the display case.) Soon I went out and found other teachers as well, one in Tai Chi Quan and the other in Long Fist (Hua Quan). Oh yeah, and I eventually did have the opportunity to "grow" with this company, the grocery chain, but in the end I wasn't interested in "moving up." Although there were plenty of good times at this job, a lot of people I worked with just drank I think, and if they had 2 jobs, were coke-heads for sure.

But yes- people who work out smart are likely to live longer than those who do not. For a western example, look at Jack Lelane.

[MarathonTmatt]

Millencolin- No Cigar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_Ta0...yer_detailpage

Rancid- Cktails:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljMbG...yer_detailpage

Down By Law- No Equalizer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P5b-...yer_detailpage

Bouncing Souls- Kid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Dlx...yer_detailpage

Dropkick Murphys- Get Up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDSMY...yer_detailpage

Rancid- the 11th Hour:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmZjP...yer_detailpage

Voodoo Glow Skulls- Delinquent Song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWTtW...yer_detailpage

Bouncing Souls- Say Anything:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xoumj...yer_detailpage

Bombshell Rocks- 1.80 Down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XTi6...yer_detailpage

A little song playlist to go w/ the mood.... an why not...

[Jimbo]

Even if someone who exercises does not live longer than one who doesn't exercise, I would say that, at least from a physical (and to a degree, mental) perspective, the overall quality of their lives will be better. Of course, there are many other factors as well, such as heredity, environment, other habits, etc. I knew of some old Chinese masters and practitioners overseas who ostensibly practiced and/or taught for health, but had some unhealthy habits, including smoking, heavy drinking, crap diet, etc. From a physical health standpoint, oftentimes the Taiji/qigong guys seemed the worst. Many Taiji/qigong practitioners claimed it's undesirable and low-level to sweat during practice, and so would invest as little effort as possible into it. Some would say that physical exertion will use up your chi and shorten your life. I guess they never heard of 'use it or lose it'.

To be fair, there are very good Taiji practitioners, but like anything else, the quality varies widely. The very easy forms of Taiji could indeed benefit people who are already old and not used to exercise. However, for one who is reasonably healthy and not old, the benefits would be limited, unless the person simply enjoys it for its own sake.

[MarathonTmatt]

Even if someone who exercises does not live longer than one who doesn't exercise, I would say that, at least from a physical (and to a degree, mental) perspective, the overall quality of their lives will be better. Of course, there are many other factors as well, such as heredity, environment, other habits, etc. I knew of some old Chinese masters and practitioners overseas who ostensibly practiced and/or taught for health, but had some unhealthy habits, including smoking, heavy drinking, crap diet, etc. From a physical health standpoint, oftentimes the Taiji/qigong guys seemed the worst. Many Taiji/qigong practitioners claimed it's undesirable and low-level to sweat during practice, and so would invest as little effort as possible into it. Some would say that physical exertion will use up your chi and shorten your life. I guess they never heard of 'use it or lose it'.

To be fair, there are very good Taiji practitioners, but like anything else, the quality varies widely. The very easy forms of Taiji could indeed benefit people who are already old and not used to exercise. However, for one who is reasonably healthy and not old, the benefits would be limited, unless the person simply enjoys it for its own sake.

Yeah, that is odd. I have always thought that the more you sweat/work-out, the better the benefits and results. I just had a killer training session last night at home. Can't wait to go back to class. Use it or lose it for sure. The first time I did a Tai Chi Push Hands class for a full hour, my legs felt like they ran a half-marathon- besides learning some forms and applications, proper body mechanics, that is the biggest lesson I have taken away from tai chi so far- rooting and redirecting. Long Fist is great too- so many leg/kicking drills, stance work, kickboxing combinations, fully extended body mechanics, applications and forms (traditional fighting forms and strength building) to learn. Oh yeah and the sparring is great conditioning too- I notice if I don't stay on top of sparring the more out of breathe I may be after sparring.

Yes sir, I would have to agree with you, from your tone of writing- I don't see how physical exertion could use up one's chi and shorten one's life. I believe just the other day, the thread started by Bawang about weight-lifting, YouKnowWho posted an old saying in Chinese- "own the weight, don't let the weight own you." I think from my experience so far (not just in the arts but life in general) that this is correct- if you own your hard-work and exercise, and not be defeated by it, you will only "bank" more vitality and strength. I remember reading a Japanese study that said people with more grip strength lived longer. Physical exercise definitely has it's benefits. But to be fair, so does standing meditation. "Train both as needed." I'm sure that someone with PTSD, if they ever took up practicing standing postures, could benefit from some of it's therapeutic affects, as could "adrenaline junkies", stuff like that. Maybe you could say that training standing postures is like being out in the woods- you have to slow everything down to observe what's going on, re-align yourself to a new environment. And then you can take those observation skills back with you and use them in everyday life.

[MarathonTmatt]

Awesome picture.

Socrates, through Plato, has surely had the largest impact on western civilisation any man can possibly have. I just love the idea that 2400 years ago Socrates used to do the same thing and that this practice has a history in western culture as well as eastern.

Where did Plato learn his stuff from? Did he not visit Egypt? That is what I remember hearing- a lot of Greek philosophy came out of older concepts from Egypt, as did the Judaic Bible, thus Christian Bible. Is not the Christian god Jesus really a re-interpretation of the older Egyptian god Horus, where we get the English word "hours" from (24 hours in a day.) Horus moved across the sky in 12 steps (Jesus' 12 disciples- representations of the 12 signs of the zodiac.) At 12 noon Horus is "the most high." He was in battle with his brother Set, who ruled the night. That's why it gets dark at sun-set. Horus was also born the same time of the year as Jesus, and died on a cross (which is really a symbolic interpretation of a constellation in the night sky.) I'm sure there are more paralelles. At a much later date the Bible was edited and edited again, and eventually people took a more literal interpretation of the Bible, to dis-enchant them from a more indigenous worldview/ thought process. Look up Astrotheology.

[MarathonTmatt]

Here is an article someone wrote about Plato and Egypt. The author asserts Plato studied in Egypt for 13 years under the Horite priesthood:

http://college-ethics.blogspot.com/2...ent-egypt.html

Here is part of a video, not from it's original upload but I can't find the original, in 3 parts. It talks about the Egyptian deity Horus, as well as other deities, including Jesus Christ, which share similarities in "the greatest story ever told." The video also goes in to the importance of the Sun in the ancient world, the winter solstice (December 25), zodiac, spring equinox, horizon points, and the constellation "the southern cross":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Hg2nB5mrZbE

[Faux Newbie]

I think the thing that often gets forgotten is that, in Chinese meditation, regardless the tradition, meditation is seen as incapable of giving full benefits on its own. Yoking the ox (harnessing the mind) is only of value if what one uses the harnessed mind to understand is of value. You do not reach enlightenment/the Tao/the virtue of a Confucian sage by meditation or postures. One can be a calm monster, but the act of being a monster will create repercussions that limit the calm one can achieve.

[wenshu]

Ok, now this is an example of exactly the kind of bleeding edge theoretical science that casues an awkward dissonance between my conspiratorial sense of creativity informed by subjective value judgements of eastern martial and religious disciplines and my skeptical scientific instincts (well, rapidly aging web hacker instincts).

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20140017222508.shtml

The theory under review, known as "orchestrated objective reduction" (Orch OR), was put forward by Penrose and Hameroff in the mid-1990s. It proposes that quantum vibrational computations in microtubules (major components of a cell's structural skeleton) are "orchestrated" (Orch) by synaptic inputs and memory, and terminated by Penrose's "objective reduction" (OR).

Orch OR was harshly criticized from its inception, as the brain was considered too "warm, wet, and noisy" for such seemingly delicate quantum processes. However, recent research has now shown warm quantum coherence in plant photosynthesis, bird brain navigation, and brain microtubules. In particular, the discovery of warm temperature quantum vibrations in microtubules by a research group led by Anirban Bandyopadhyay in Japan, goes a long way to corroborating Penrose and Hameroff's original theory. Penrose says his and Hameroff's new paper updates the evidence and clarifies Orch OR quantum bits as helical pathways in microtubule lattices.

Even the site name ScienceAGogo contributes to the sense that this is complete b.s. Until you review the academics involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/...CUniverse1.pdf

Orch OR suggests that there is a connection between the brain’s biomolecular processes
and the basic structure of the universe.

Here's the researcher whose work is mentioned as something of a validation in the review of the admittedly nutty sounding Orch OR theory. Now I'm still skeptical (I think I saw Chopra's name pop up in association) but his c.v. looks flawless to me.

http://www.anirbanlab.co.nr/

[wenshu]

I think the thing that often gets forgotten is that, in Chinese meditation, regardless the tradition, meditation is seen as incapable of giving full benefits on its own. Yoking the ox (harnessing the mind) is only of value if what one uses the harnessed mind to understand is of value. You do not reach enlightenment/the Tao/the virtue of a Confucian sage by meditation or postures. One can be a calm monster, but the act of being a monster will create repercussions that limit the calm one can achieve.

There are as many paths to sagehood as there are definitions of sage.