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Thread: From Victory to the Hung 洪勝 to Great Victory 鸿勝

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    From Victory to the Hung 洪勝 to Great Victory 鸿勝

    It’s a well known fact that the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon (佛山鴻勝蔡李佛)as founded by Jeung Hung Sing was one of the most famous martial art schools to emerge from southern China during the last 60+ years of the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). Today (160 years later), the Hung Sing 鴻勝 name continues to hold a high level of prestige amongst the older generations of southern Chinese martial teachers and students. Even the government of Fut San recognized Jeung Hung Sing’s major contributions not only to gung fu, but, for protecting their country against foreign invaders as well. Now, you can find a Hung Sing “鴻勝”school on virtually every continent of the world. But, not many people remember or even know the true root to the Hung Sing name itself.

    In every Chinese martial art community around the world its safe to say the Hung Sing “鴻勝” Chinese characters as we know it today are highly recognizable. However, reaching back to 1851 this Hung Sing “鴻勝” wasn’t the original name being used in those days. It came later and was used as the replacement characters and installed somewhere between 1867 when Jeung Hung Sing returned to re-open his school in Fut San, or, in 1875 when Chan Heung passed away. Either way, not too many students of today’s generation are aware of the origin of this name and naturally assumed it was the one given to Jeung Yim by the monk Ching Cho (Green Grass Monk).

    The answer to the question of “where did Jeung Yim’s Hung Sing name come from?”, was discovered in one of the books published in 1866 by a certain European Free Mason, who, was interested in the Chinese secret society. In this case, the author personally documented what he found on the flags of the society by hand. The truth about its origins came in the form of a slogan consisting of only 4 Chinese words found on one of those flags. The only trick is, it takes someone with inside knowledge of the society to know what to look for and how to decipher it. Hiding things in plain sight to conceal its true meaning from prying eyes was a common practice amongst the Chinese secret societies.

    From the moment the Qing government destroyed the Shaolin Temple (Circa 1760), killing the monks within it, overthrowing the Qing has been one of the Hung Mun’s primary goals since its existence. This is where the secretive slogan of four words come into play. The meaning behind it was “the Hung Mun will be victorious in overthrowing the Qing government.” You can arguably claim that the slogan was more in line with a prediction of victory more than anything else. Still, because of the government mandate that anyone presumed to be a member of the Hung Mun were to be decapitated on the spot, they were forced to hide this prediction within an obscured slogan.

    The original Hung Sing (洪勝) name given to Jeung Yim by the Green Grass Monk meant Hung Victory and can also be translated as Victory to the Hung, as in Hung Mun. It was derived from the Hung Mun slogan and used as synonym for it. In addition to this, the Hung Sing (洪勝) name shares the exact same greater meaning of “the Hung Mun will be victorious in overthrowing the Qing government” with the four worded slogan. Furthermore, this name wasn’t something created by Jeung Yim as it was already in use elsewhere, nor, was it exclusively used by him. For instance, a 洪勝堂 (Hung Sing Tong) already existed in the mountains of Guangxi where 60 out of 100 secret society tongs contained the word Sing ”勝”or Victory in their names.

    In 1867 Jeung Hung Sing returned to Fut San to re-open his school that was closed down by the Qing government. Somewhere between 1867-1875 Jeung Yim needed to change the name of his school in order to avoid futher trouble with the law. According to certain Chan Family Choy Lee Fut members he asked Chan Heung for help in choosing a new name, but, since there are no records of this its difficult to verify. Regardless, he changed his schools name to 鴻勝 (Hung Sing) while keeping the “Hung”pronunciation by replacing the original “洪” (Hung) character with.

    Jeung Yim’s decision to use this character was well thought out for a few of reasons. First, the new “鴻” (Hung – lit. Trans. - Great Wild Goose) character didn’t have a visual connection to the outlawed secret society to a spectator. However, there is more to the new character than meets the eye. Secondly, on the left side of both characters “洪 & 鴻” the three water drops (氵) are found. This was a hidden symbol used by the secret society. Thirdly, another secret symbol used by the tong founded by the Green Grass Monk was for the word Sau meaning “Longevity.” The new “鴻” (Hung – lit. Trans. - Great Wild Goose) character also has a connection to the word “Longevity” since this is what the Wild Goose represents within the Chinese Culture.

    Masters like Lui Chun, Yuen Hai, and Lee Yan were Jeung Yim’s students when the school was using the original 洪勝 (Hung Sing-Hung Victory ) name, while in 1884 Chan Ngau Sing began training with Jeung Yim when the school was already using the new 鴻勝 (Hung Sing – Great Wild Goose) characters. From that point to the present, the old name had long been forgotten and the new one gained fame throughout the world. Today, you can find a 鴻勝 school on virtually every continent on the planet. And, since 2001 the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon (佛山鴻勝蔡李佛), the birthplace of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, has re-emerged into the martial world the legacy of Jeung Yim is once again regaining its popularity. I know if Jeung Yim was watching over us he’d be extremely proud to see his fighting method flourishing like it is, Long Live Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  2. #2
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    hong victory was changed to great victory after hong xiuquan started acting crazy. also looting and pillaging the cities brought a lot of guilt to young men who thought they were fighting as heroes.

    not only clf deny or downplay taiping connection, dozens of kung fus tyles today was born from taiping rebelion but denies links. biggest denier is shaolin kung fu.
    Last edited by bawang; 07-01-2014 at 09:07 AM.

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    It's the governments fault the tai ping rebellion took place. they let the white people in to try and convert their heathen selves to the civilized world of Christianity.
    if i were living during that time, i'd have done what the chinese did to the foreigners as well. Invade my country and try to change our ways to yours, meet my big ass
    Chopper!!!!!
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    It's the governments fault the tai ping rebellion took place. they let the white people in to try and convert their heathen selves to the civilized world of Christianity.
    if i were living during that time, i'd have done what the chinese did to the foreigners as well. Invade my country and try to change our ways to yours, meet my big ass
    Chopper!!!!!
    I wish more civilisations reacted to missionaries in that manner, but that's another topic.

    Sifu Frank, thanks for an informative post. I know little about CLF and its history but I love reading about CMA history in general.

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    Thank you sir.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  6. #6
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    Interesting. Don't take this the wrong way, I know you and I go at each other. However, I do have a serious inquiry/critique here. What evidence have you uncovered of Ching Cho's existence? Is it all just in the hand postures still? That's really not very solid, you'd have to admit. Since you're the insider, have you found anything more concrete regarding Green Grass Monk. Especially given Doc Wong's turnabout, and your slam at him for doing so... Not calling you out this time. Genuine question.

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    As far as i am going to say....... the lodge i belong to is founded by the green grass monk. The very same one Shrimp boy is the Dragon Head of. GGM's Tong in China was the largest and most powerful Tong in all of southern China (not my quote.....a police researchers quote). In my book, these are some of the things I cover in regards to the GGM. I reveal his true name (although my teacher put it out there already), what his parents did for a living, his teachers name, his actual shaolin temple name, how he came to get the name of "GREEN GRASS" and so on. I am adding in some pics of statues, and caricatures of him that even come from the tong he founded. Do i have birth records? NO. you won't find much about him outside of the secret society. why? the government wanted his head. So he disguised himself and kept his identity a secret to those he didn't know. when your life is on the line, you won't put out things that will get you apprehended.

    Doc Fai Wong now FALSELY claims he found the true identity of the GREEN GRASS MONK and that he was actually the Monk Choy Fook and that "GREEN GRASS" was his Buddhist name. But this isn't new, other CLF students that research like myself know what i know and have said that "Sure, if we can apply the GGM to Chan Heung, then he does exist. But, if we say it was Cheung Hung Sing's teacher, then no he doesn't exist." I don't know about anyone else, but I can see the BS in the midst of all that.... extremely clearly.

    this is my response to everyone trying to claim the GGM as Monk Choy Fook......

    Monk Choy Fook is NOT the Green Grass Monk


    By Sifu Frankie M

    The true identity of the Green Grass Monk and whether or not he was a Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon creation (as it was once accused) has long been a sore spot for the Choy Lee Fut fraternity. On one hand, this mysterious character was never part of Chan Heung’s history. I have personally contacted various leaders of King Mui lineages to quiz them on what they may have known about the Green Grass Monk. And, the responses were all the same, “Sorry, his name isn’t found in our official documentation.” After that, it was back to square one and all I could do was keep digging.

    On the other hand, the Green Grass Monk has always been a part of the history of the Cheung Hung Sing lineages from the very beginning. Sure, we didn’t have much in regards of recorded history within the Fut San Hung Sing lineages. But, upon closer inspection, all of the students of Cheung Hung Sing’s school were labeled as rebels by the Qing Empire and they were forced to go deep underground. Any written literature that may connect someone with the outlawed groups could and often did mean instant death by beheading. Therefore, taking this into consideration, it makes perfect sense to why they chose to verbally transmit their history and information instead.

    In the year 2001, a big heated debate on a well known kung fu forum took place. Students of all three of Choy Lee Fut’s major branches (Chan Fam, Hung Sing and Buk Sing) participated in this discussion that went on for some time. No one could agree in regards to whether or not Green Grass Monk was just a story or indeed very real. While it cause a few ripples within the fraternity, the after effect was the newer and younger generations began to question their own teachers about this monk. It definitely wasn’t an issue that was going to be swept under the rug anytime soon.

    The Green Grass Monk debate caused such a ruckus that one very high profile Choy Lee Fut teacher came out and claimed that he discovered the true identity of the Green Grass Monk. His erroneous claim stated that “Green Grass” was the monasterial name of Chan Heung’s second teacher Monk Choy Fook. This announcement turned the Choy Lee Fut fraternity on its ear because of the fact that a number of years before this incident, he wrote a book and listed many reasons why he felt the Green Grass Monk was a concoction of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon.

    Now, it is my personal opinion that this Choy Lee Fut teacher was monopolizing on the idea that no one would be dedicated or resourceful enough to discover the truth. Since he was unaware of the outside sources at my disposal, he must have felt that he could get away with claiming the “Green Grass” name was of Buddhist origin. But, when my book is complete, people will learn the various names the Green Grass Monk used as his alias’, the occupation of his parents, how he came to be a shaolin monk, about his life, all the way down to the genesis of the “Green Grass” name and much, much more.

    But the one thing I need to clear up right away is that Monk Choy Fook is in no way, shape or form the Green Grass Monk. More and more these days you will come across historical information that has adopted this misconceived notion of the Green Grass Monk’s identity. And, if this LIE keeps getting perpetuated, people will believe it’s the truth. This would not be good for the Choy Lee Fut fraternity because everyone knows the Green Grass Monk was Cheung Hung Sing’s 3rd teacher and had nothing to do with chan heung at all.

    A few of the quick and easy points to recognize that Monk Choy Fook is NOT the Green Grass Monk is: 1) Choy Fook is known to have lived on Mt. Lou Fu while the Green Grass Monk was living on the Ba Pai Mountain many miles away. As you can see from the image of the map, this mountain was very far away from Mt Loufu and would be too difficult for an elderly monk to travel back and forth from, 2) One very important identifying factor is that keeps getting brought up is the notion that Monk Choy Fook had a scarred head, allegedly from his head being caught on fire during the destruction of the southern Shaolin Temple as he escaped. It is such an important aspect of Monk Choy Fook aka Lan Tau Fook, that it needed to be mentioned. However, nothing of the sort has ever been mentioned about the Green Grass Monk at all.


    The third point to make note of is Monk Choy Fook was a master of the Choy Gar style and died as a recluse on Mt. Loufu while the Green Grass Monk lived on Ba Pai Mountain, taught Fut Gar Kuen, was a founder of the Hung Mun, and had a mission of raising an army to rise up against the government. In addition to all of this, the “GREEN GRASS” name isn’t anyone’s temple name at all. Never was, and never will be. Do you know why? Because it’s true origin is not with Shaolin, but the Chinese Secret Society. I go deeper into this subject in the book I am writing.

    In conclusion, I’m not sure why anyone would want to abuse the legacy of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon by denying the Green Grass Monk’s existence as long as it was part of Cheung Hung Sing’s history. But if the Green Grass Monk can be applied towards Chan Heung’s legacy, then sure, he really did exist. One doesn’t need to be a rocket scientist to see the reasoning behind anyone claiming Monk Choy Fook to be the Green Grass Monk. The sad part of it is, those people making these claims know they are not telling the truth. Still, the truth shall set you free.

    This is a map that shows where the Ba Pai Mountain was in comparison to Mt Loufu where Monk Choy Fook was. now, they always claimed the Ba Pai Mountain didn't exist. but the circle on the left is where the Ba Pai Mountain is and the circle on the right is Mt Loufu Name:  DSC00027.jpg
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    Last edited by hskwarrior; 07-05-2014 at 09:23 PM.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  8. #8
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    for any remaining doubters that the Ba Pai San ever existed here are some pics of the mountain today......

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    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  9. #9
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    the name refers to a taoist spell for success in rebellion. "let the blades of grass become forest of swords". the grass represents the common people. green grass refers to the youth.
    Last edited by bawang; 07-22-2014 at 07:40 AM.

    Honorary African American
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    Senior Business Director at TEAM ASSHAMMER consulting services ™®LLC

  10. #10
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    Sounds nice. but the green grass name strictly belongs to the chinese secret society. nothing more, nothing less.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  11. #11
    I heard that the Green Grass Monk got his name from selling weed to Shaolin dropouts and coolies in Guandong.
    Last edited by Bai Chi; 07-24-2014 at 01:06 AM.

  12. #12
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    I heard that the Green Grass Monk got his name from selling weed to Shaolin dropouts and coolies in Guandong.
    yeah??? that's wonderful. thanks for sharing.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    yeah??? that's wonderful. thanks for sharing.
    You are most welcome!

  14. #14
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    Frank,
    You are still going on with this rubbish about the CLF history after all these years. Your research is full of holes, let me give you two examples:
    1) There is no way Jeung Ah-Yim and his students would use the name "Victory to Hung Men" Hung Sing for their school, they would have been persecuted right on the spot by the Ching government.
    2) Ba Pai Mountain is not in Guangdong as showed in your map, it is in Guangxi, what you have circled as Bai Pai Moiuntain is a town called Luoding in Guangdong, not very far from where I was born.
    If you want to change CLF history to suit your fantasy, you'll need to do better than this.
    XJ

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    Come to think of it, whoever told you Luoding is Ba Pai has a wicked sense of humor, because Luofu, where Choy Fok came from, means "everything is undetermined (floating)", whereas Luoding means "everything is determined (settled)".

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